Course correcting?

[uofapiglet]

So this episode deals a lot with time travel, deja vu, second chances, fate/destiny, a pre-determined "path", etc.... And we even heard Penny say that "don't rewrite history"...

My question for this thread is: IN KNOWING THE FUTURE, CAN YOU CHANGE IT?

Will Desmond continue trying to save Charlie's life as long as those future events keep "flashing before his eyes"... Or will something happen that will eventually cause Charlie's death or demise? Any alternatives?

Speculate on...


(BUT PLEASE LIMIT THE TIME TRAVEL STUFF, TRY TO KEEP WITH COURSE CORRECTION STUFF, THANKS!)

(FYI - I edited my original post to say "course" instead of "cause" after reading sledge's article, sorry for the mondegreen (i.e. hearing it wrong)

[ozman776]

i guess this is what i have to think on this.... that somehow information "from the future" is getting back to the mainland years previously... and if so... can it be that some of the richest people in this show have been made to disrupt there childrens lives and sacrafice there happiness so as to have them board that plane...boat for des..etc...just so they can keep there wealth that theyve accumulated thru future knowledge..(stock market or whatever)... out of this episode it had to be a willing act on desmonds part to leave penny..and in doing so he now will join the military and embark on the sail race ending back up on the island doing what hes done.... the failsafe has been pushed so many times it seems because everything we see now AFTER the implosion has already happened in dez's world... and if he saw in one flashback de ja vu that charlie gets hit by lightning... then the next time he transports back... he saves him only to see him die trying to save claire... so im imagining that we will know how many times dez has been transported back in time per how many times he tries and knows how to save charlie.... and it would seem likely that kidnapping the children is so they can be sent back in time because everyone elses bodies are disintergrating from time travel.... i LOVED this episode.....

[mindsparkle]

I feel thick as a board and dumber than a mud fence... I'm processing this one and it mystifies me... sorry, I can't add anything useful or intelligent -- I'm waiting and wanting to see what everyone has to say...

[ozman776]

ohhhhh ohhhhhhh..... brain just sputtered for a second then went back into its trance like state.... ok lets try this one..... if people were in fact GIVEN tickets for the plane... then the ones who arranged there flights are working for (unknown entity) and have made it there priority to get x amount of people on that plane that will survive and carry on there work... if lockes legs/ back were useless before the crash then does that mean that the island is in fact in the past tense... same as rose... and how she feels she isnt carrying a deadly discease... oh man...dont worry about it...shoulda thought this thru more before showing how completely lost i am now... joins mindsparkle on the fence... gonna wait for someone else to tell me what i already kinda know but cant explain....

[uofapiglet]

LOL! Gotta love the train of thought Ozzman... I dunno what to say...

I guess I'll just repeat it: IN KNOWING THE FUTURE, CAN YOU CHANGE IT?

Therefore, is "cause correcting" a good or bad thing?

[ozman776]

Think we'll find out...pennys answer to dez's "why do u love me" was ... because your a GOOD man dez..and it seemed she'd met a few bad ones.... is her dad using this information for something bad/evil/egotistical.... does penny know what her dad really does.... is she hoping dez will truely fall in love with her and save her from what shes probably going thru if shes been doing the same "groundhog day" type sequences for years.... im seeing that this is going to be a compilation of clues shown at once much like "usual suspects" where we sit and say ohhh and wowwww... and im thinking they are spreading these episodes and characters out the way they are so we dont get tooo clued in on one certain character and piece it all together.... tonight we witnessed something very amazing in how dez has gone back (im saying many many atime) and maybe adam and eve are what happens when u go back once too many.... penny would be happy to spend the next 3 years happily with dez than to have to lose him the same way every time he comes back.... im wanting to rewatch over and over how she asked how the job interview went and when dez says ya fathers real nice... she senses that he's just gonna flee again... and in the end.... you cant change the future..unless you sacrafice yourself.... loved how he said i love you penny as he turned the key.... happy valentines day moment ladies... isnt that what everyones searching for...

[Cardacct]

Thanks for the Valentine's bit there, ozman!

.... and it would seem likely that kidnapping the children is so they can be sent back in time because everyone elses bodies are disintergrating from time travel...

Actually, what you said is making me ponder the 70 year-old uterus of the 20-something female.

So what we saw from Desmond's ... butterfly effect (for lack of better term) ... is that he is not the only person in it.  The ring store lady also experiences everything like Desmond.  He isn't alone there.  So, I wonder if there are more people, such as the 20 year-old with the 70 year-old uterus.  Does the butterfly effect experience affect their bodies?  Are they living and reliving the same experiences over and over and does it affect parts of their bodies?

Hmmm...

[mindsparkle]

LOL... good thoughts ozman776, but obviously you aren't straddling the same fence I am..    you have thought I have buzzing grey matter...

For a moment, with Piglet's statement about in knowing the future can you change it...  I had a glimmer of thought... and, I'll try to process it...

I am reminded of a book called the Lathe of Heaven by Ursala Kay Le Guinn... and it's about trying to change the future by changing the past... and it eventually destroys the world...

the premise is that we can not know the subtleties that are affected by our behavior/actions or anyone else's...  that the universe is so finitely put together that the slightest change -- changes everything... like the constant of motion applications... as if the world were liquid and when one area is affected the whole is affected... essentially, the same as saying the universe is one...  that we are woven together like fabric and cannot undo what we have done without undoing other's tapestries/lives as well...

Wow... was that and LSD flashback... yikes!  j/k

[dcnole]

i guess this is what i have to think on this.... that somehow information "from the future" is getting back to the mainland years previously... and if so... can it be that some of the richest people in this show have been made to disrupt there childrens lives and sacrafice there happiness so as to have them board that plane...boat for des..etc...just so they can keep there wealth that theyve accumulated thru future knowledge..(stock market or whatever)... out of this episode it had to be a willing act on desmonds part to leave penny..and in doing so he now will join the military and embark on the sail race ending back up on the island doing what hes done.... the failsafe has been pushed so many times it seems because everything we see now AFTER the implosion has already happened in dez's world... and if he saw in one flashback de ja vu that charlie gets hit by lightning... then the next time he transports back... he saves him only to see him die trying to save claire... so im imagining that we will know how many times dez has been transported back in time per how many times he tries and knows how to save charlie.... and it would seem likely that kidnapping the children is so they can be sent back in time because everyone elses bodies are disintergrating from time travel.... i LOVED this episode.....

I'm not sure if we're supposed to believe Desmond has gone back and forth a bunch of times or not.  I've gone back and forth on this a few times in my head.  It seems like it wouldn't make sense if he hadn't because how would he know of death #2 if not for having prevented death #1 after learning of it the first time, but it he never said he had seen things multiple times. And when he tackles Charlie on the beach when drunk, I'm pretty sure he said "You don't want to know what happened when I turned that key!" not "You don't want to know what happens when I turn that key".  The former seems to suggest (though not conclusively) a singular occasion while the latter is what you'd be inclined to say if it were something he kept doing in some sort of time loop.  The writers could have used the 2nd version to give us a clue, but didn't.

This time travel stuff can really give you a headache!

[ozman776]

this probably wont be how it is... but im wondering if the swan hatch is the portal from one year/decade etc to another.... lol and whilst were naming movies tv shows... then kind of like "stargate"... so im going with the swan is the stargate portal and sends people back to a certain time and when some people are given that opportunity... most would instantly think how i can use this to benefit "ME"... play the ponies,the stock market etc... and the ones who dont are then sent to mental intitutions because there ramblings...much like dez's in the bar with his mate would seem rather insane.... ohhhh gonna leave that thought until mornin... i like that idea that people who dont travel to keep things the way they are, are sent for mind retraining???

[slic]

So this episode deals a lot with time travel, deja vu, second chances, fate/destiny, a pre-determined "path", etc.... And we even heard Penny say that "you can't rewrite history"...

My question for this thread is: IN KNOWING THE FUTURE, CAN YOU CHANGE IT?

Will Desmond continue trying to save Charlie's life as long as those future events keep "flashing before his eyes"... Or will something happen that will eventually cause Charlie's death or demise? Any alternatives?

Speculate on...

One theory of time, and i guess time travel i believe is that time is like a wave; or better yet a series of waves - if it were possible to go back in time (say to a previous wave in the series) things in that time may be different, but you would not be able to change the future because the wave will always fall in the same place - following the one before it, and leading the one behind it.  This is what the ring store lady is describing when she talks about the guy with the red shoes.  That's all well and good, but it still leaves the question open to that fact that - you still have no way of knowing what future the waves are moving towards, so can you really know whats going to happen, beyond what already has...

[uofapiglet]

I'm glad you mentioned "butterfly effect" Cardi, and I know someone had already made the allusion to the "Final Destination" storyline... If Des can or cannot change those flashes that he sees, how will it affect other future events?

And when you brought up the "Ring Store Lady" (Ms. Flannigan) I also wondered about how she knew about Desmond and the impact she was to make on him by crossing his "path". That whole scene was so odd because she asked him "Is this your first time?" and I dunno if she meant buying a ring, or experiencing deja vu or future-flashes. Desmond wanted to buy the ring and she refused to sell it to him then followed by saying what he was "supposed" to do instead. Did she mean to expose him to her knowledge of "cause correcting"?

Desmond's character is so unique because he himself goes back and forth on whether or not he can actually change the outcome... At first he says in the pub scene that he can change, then he stares at the picture of Penny and cries about doings things differently, but he tells Charlie he can't do anything to stop it...

Maybe it's as Charlie said, "I don't believe in this pre-cognitive insanity madness" or whatever... For his sake, lets hope so because he is still alive... wonder how TPTB will continue this storyline... death to Charlie? A sacrificial Desmond? Or does this "telling the future" business even matter?

[ChellyKins]

I feel thick as a board and dumber than a mud fence... I'm processing this one and it mystifies me... sorry, I can't add anything useful or intelligent -- I'm waiting and wanting to see what everyone has to say...

Me too...but I am posting in here so I can stay on top of this one. You people rock!! 

[Maxor127]

I don't think Desmond really went back in time.  You don't go back in time after getting knocked out.  And you don't see creepy old ladies who know the truth about you.  It sounds like it was a test from the monster instead.

[Creflo]

I believe what we're going for here is COURSE correction.  There is an inevitable bearing for the course of events, and the actions of a little person like Desmond can only temporarily sway the metaphorical vessel.  It will steer back towards the predetermined destiny.

Of course, I think that's hogwash.