The Brainwashing Fun Time Room

[Sunflower]

Why would he seperate them then?  I don't think so personally.

[Maxor127]

I think the screen cap moment was probably the Jacob thing.  The producers said in their podcast that Jacob is an important name and to look for it in coming episodes and they seemed to hint that he's the head of everything.  It's purposely meant to have a dual meaning both biblical and relating to this mysterious "leader."

[LostGirlDeb]

Hi I found this on the BR while waiting for the site to come up and thought you guys might find this interesting too
http://www.theblackrock.org/df/ForumsPro/viewforum/f=81.html

and if you are not able to get to the link here is a direct quote from Astro on BR
~~~~quote~~~~~
Okay, lostintranslation actually found this site, but I wanted to go ahead and post it.

online.sfsu.edu/~rone/...tsteps.htm

Scroll down to the Basic Teachings of Buddha then to number 3 The Law of Cause and Effect.
It gives a quote from buddhism:
"The kind of seed sown
will produce that kind of fruit.
Those who do good will reap good results.
Those who do evil will reap evil results.
If you carefully plant a good seed,
You will joyfully gather good fruit."
Dhammapada

All of these things were a part of the video Carl was being forced to watch. In addition, the brainwashing video also said "God loves us like he loved Jacob"

I think its interesting that the video seemed to show teachings from both Buddhism and the Bible. A cross of Eastern and Western philosophies. Sorta like Aldous Huxley's Island. Click here for Wikipedia
~~~end of quote~~~

I went to the site mentioned and need to go back
I think there may be more clues

[apriori]

I'd like to see the entire segment (shots of the screen anyways) slowly or frame by frame...

There has to be some interesting stuff there.

I went through it in slow mo. None of the images jumped out at me except that as they're carrying Carl out, just as the room goes out of view, suddenly the film cuts to a bearded man in what looks like a science lab.  He's sitting at a lab bench looking down at some sort of piece of equipment. I didn't recognize him. It's possible it's Hanso, or someone else we've seen. Hopefully we can get a screen cap.  Beyond that, the images seemed generic (though it's possible they have some sort of combined meaning).  There were 5 total written statements. 

First: "Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

Second: "Everything Changes"

Third: "We are the causes of our own suffering"

Fourth: "God loves you as He loved Jacob"

Fifth: "Think About [slide changes] Your Life"

I suppose I'll stop lurking and toss in my two cents.
The third statement, "We are the causes of our own suffering" is extremely Buddhist, especially because of the use of the word "suffering". (The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism go something like 1. Living is Suffering 2. Our desires cause our suffering 3. Cessation of desiring will cause the cessation of suffering 4. The way to stop desiring is to follow the eightfold path)

The "God loves you as He loved Jacob" line is certainly Jewish or Christian, but I can't figure anything out about the other lines. Is there a chance that these are all related to different religions?

[mindsparkle]

Everything changes and everything in the universe is on time... is a common phrase by new-agers, those interested in considering alternative religions/spirituality... and especially buddism... very much a part of eastern thought and practice...


God loves you as he loved Jacob -- obviously Jacob is someone to be revered and to be like Jacob woud be the closest you can get to obtaining God's love?  Were there limitations to God's love for Jacob or was Jacob loved unconditionally?  All we can know is that Jacob is very important... stating the obvious, I know... I'm processing...LOL

[Sunflower]

Jacob was very special to God and named his nation after him.  There is also the famous story of Jacob wrestling with God and the ladder going up to heaven (Jacob's Ladder).  Jacob on the island as the leader could draw some parrells.

[nothingbutsky]

Does anyone know what the music was?
What was the significance, if any? Maybe just to keep him awake?
Wouldn't verbal messages have more of a brainwashing effect?

Could it have been Driveshaft???

[lyrasdaemon]

Has anyone tried anagrams with "god loves you..."  Some interesting words right off the bat:  solve, absolve, bold, cave, dove...   

[uofapiglet]

Like mindsparkle mentioned earlier, the whole scene is very Stanley Kubrick's "A ClockworK Orange"... It's actually a form of extreme psychological behavioral treatment called 'aversion therapy' but basically it's just some sort of visual (flashing images) and other sensory exposure (e.g. the loud techno music) that a subject is exposed to in order for them to change their behavior. In the Kubrick movie it was used as a method to deter the main character 'Alex' from violence and rape. It's often mistaken for brainwashing because of it's short term effects and the fact that it is very graphic - they keep your eyes open even if you are tired just to get the images embedded in your waking thoughts and preferably your subconsciouness. Aversion therapy is actually still around today but not so grandiose, for example, there's this foul tasting stuff that you can put on your nails to stop biting them, or some AA groups have different methods of making the taste of alcohol seem so gross that prevent alcoholics from drinking. 

I don't know if the Others consider it punishment, but it was definitely a way for them to control Karl and get him to act appropriately in their society. So maybe the question we should all be really asking, besides what are those images or what is the significance of those sayings is,  WHAT DID KARL DO TO GET THE AVERSION THERAPY?

[tonysee200x]

It seems like there was a bunch of these rooms going down the hallway. I wonder if this is where the Tailies kids are being kept?

Maybe Walt did not get this treatment because he was “special”.

[apriori]

Like mindsparkle mentioned earlier, the whole scene is very Stanley Kubrick's "A ClockworK Orange"... It's actually a form of extreme psychological behavioral treatment called 'aversion therapy' but basically it's just some sort of visual (flashing images) and other sensory exposure (e.g. the loud techno music) that a subject is exposed to in order for them to change their behavior. In the Kubrick movie it was used as a method to deter the main character 'Alex' from violence and rape. It's often mistaken for brainwashing because of it's short term effects and the fact that it is very graphic - they keep your eyes open even if you are tired just to get the images embedded in your waking thoughts and preferably your subconsciouness. Aversion therapy is actually still around today but not so grandiose, for example, there's this foul tasting stuff that you can put on your nails to stop biting them, or some AA groups have different methods of making the taste of alcohol seem so gross that prevent alcoholics from drinking. 

I don't know if the Others consider it punishment, but it was definitely a way for them to control Karl and get him to act appropriately in their society. So maybe the question we should all be really asking, besides what are those images or what is the significance of those sayings is,  WHAT DID KARL DO TO GET THE AVERSION THERAPY?

Actually it was a book ten years before it was a movie.
I looked up "godlovesyouashelovedaaron" in a few anagram finders online but it's way too long to be ran through any of them and even if it did you'd have tons of messages. And, as I think somebody brought up before, you can't get "Adam" out of that.

[sledgeweb]

It seems like there was a bunch of these rooms going down the hallway. I wonder if this is where the Tailies kids are being kept?

Maybe Walt did not get this treatment because he was “special”.

One of the first thoughts I had, was whether this room could be similar to the room Walt was threatened with back in Season 2.

[uofapiglet]

I went through it in slow mo. None of the images jumped out at me except that as they're carrying Carl out, just as the room goes out of view, suddenly the film cuts to a bearded man in what looks like a science lab.  He's sitting at a lab bench looking down at some sort of piece of equipment. I didn't recognize him. It's possible it's Hanso, or someone else we've seen. Hopefully we can get a screen cap.  Beyond that, the images seemed generic (though it's possible they have some sort of combined meaning).  There were 5 total written statements. 

1) First: "Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

2) Second: "Everything Changes"

3) Third: "We are the causes of our own suffering"

4) Fourth: "God loves you as He loved Jacob"

5) Fifth: "Think About [slide changes] Your Life"

Thanks for posting the quotes from the flashing images dcnole...

1) I think Lostgirl (aka Debs) pretty much explained this one with regards to the Buddhist philosophies. There's referrences made to Dharma and I even think that the photomosaics in between the "everything changes part" and before that dolls looked like the Dharma BAGUA symbol/logo. I'll even add that the quote also has some allusion to the "Adam and Eve" bible story because their demise was caused by a fruit (apple) from a tree that they were warned was not 'good'.

2) Talk about an understatement... after this episode lots of things are about to change. The guard, Aldo, was even reading Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" outside of the prison chamber which has some referrences to cosmology, math, and evolution - in a way, the progress of change with regards to man's existence on earth.

3) I loved this line because it deals with so many themes from the show: suffering, redemtion, purgatory (sorry I killed a kitten Pandy), evolution, the framework of time, etc. First we are shown images of old/ancient Roman coins to one 1921 Epluribus Unum coin to cds to a compass and so on... it gave me the sense of circular theory, life as a cycle, alpha et omega, sun/moon - day/night, time in clockwork motion, one gigantic circle, whatever... I have yet to develop this theory so pardon if it sound really stupid and a gross over-analysis... --- Second, if "WE" are the causes of our own suffering, does that mean hell as other people? It reminded me Sartre's play "No Exit" where hell is how we deal with our realtionships to others and the whole survival with others or alone ordeal... live together, die alone right? --- Lastly, it's interesting that the word suffering would be associated with loads of dead fish and a cockroach.

4) One word, JACOB... I'm not going to go into this in detail, maybe another thread... religious referrences always stem some form of theoretical argument about who is Jacob and who his HIM and is Jacob = HIM... I have no freakin idea man...

5) "Think about - your life"? Again, what did Karl do that was so bad as to deserve all this aversion therapy and why is his life important? I mean, if he did something extraordinarily 'bad', why didn't they just kill him and get it over with instead of Alex making some desperate attempt to rescue him only to let him go and have Sawyer and Kate take him back to their island?

The end... Sorry it's long again, can't help it...

[uofapiglet]

It seems like there was a bunch of these rooms going down the hallway. I wonder if this is where the Tailies kids are being kept?

Maybe Walt did not get this treatment because he was “special”.

One of the first thoughts I had, was whether this room could be similar to the room Walt was threatened with back in Season 2.

Hi sledge!

I wondered about that whole facility too... There are lots of queries about why people are considered "pecial" and if by chance this happened to be the same place they kept Walt and the other flight survivors that were taken from the tail section.

[uofapiglet]

Like mindsparkle mentioned earlier, the whole scene is very Stanley Kubrick's "A ClockworK Orange"... It's actually a form of extreme psychological behavioral treatment called 'aversion therapy' but basically it's just some sort of visual (flashing images) and other sensory exposure (e.g. the loud techno music) that a subject is exposed to in order for them to change their behavior. In the Kubrick movie it was used as a method to deter the main character 'Alex' from violence and rape. It's often mistaken for brainwashing because of it's short term effects and the fact that it is very graphic - they keep your eyes open even if you are tired just to get the images embedded in your waking thoughts and preferably your subconsciouness. Aversion therapy is actually still around today but not so grandiose, for example, there's this foul tasting stuff that you can put on your nails to stop biting them, or some AA groups have different methods of making the taste of alcohol seem so gross that prevent alcoholics from drinking. 

I don't know if the Others consider it punishment, but it was definitely a way for them to control Karl and get him to act appropriately in their society. So maybe the question we should all be really asking, besides what are those images or what is the significance of those sayings is,  WHAT DID KARL DO TO GET THE AVERSION THERAPY?

Actually it was a book ten years before it was a movie.
I looked up "godlovesyouashelovedaaron" in a few anagram finders online but it's way too long to be ran through any of them and even if it did you'd have tons of messages. And, as I think somebody brought up before, you can't get "Adam" out of that.

Welcome to the boards, apriori, glad you put your two cents in...

Yup, it was a book by Anthony Burgess, I think, before Kubrick made the movie...

And I don't know why people are trying to get an anagram out of that, I think the significance of the quote is just to bring up Jacob... I saw that someone posted mad information about the story of Jacob and Esau (the biblical twins) on the investigations page... Cuz I don't get 'Adam' either... I thought that the main anagram was for "Mittelos" which rearranged was "lost time"...