Author Topic: The Psychological Skinner Box  (Read 9746 times)

Offline Desmond8MyPopRocks

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The Psychological Skinner Box
« on: October 06, 2006, 12:04:49 AM »
Howdy.  First off, let me begin by saying that I really enjoyed last night's epi.  Many said they felt it lacked, while I do not share that same sentiment.  Here are my personal observations and why I named this topic as I did.

The Skinner Box:

After Sawyer, Jack and Kate were taken by Benry and TheOthers, each was placed in an environment which would best, initially, at least test their immediate survival skills and motivational triggers to escape.

First we see Kate, who is stripped of her regular attire and forced to wear a dress which she is clearly not used to wearing.  In other words, she was stripped initially of her comfort zone and made to feel quite vulnerable.  Benry makes her put on the handcuffs which serve as a reminder to her of her status as that of a fugitive--that she's not free, or may never be "free."

Next we see Jack, who is in his own glass Skinner Box--but his initial introduction to TheOthers' testing is more psychological, to determine his motivational triggers, to see what his trust issues are and what will ultimately be a trigger to "break" him--hence Juliette is his first contact and I don't believe it to be any surprise that she closely resembles Sarah.  What inevitably transpires between Juliette and Jack is the equivalent of a mindscrew and a few tests to see what his triggers are.

For example, there is the food issue which was used to determine his trust level of Juliette.  There was also the water room--which I believe was used to determine whether Jack would ultimately save Juliette, or would he let her drown to save himself?  In the end, Juliette knew Jack went to Australia to retrieve DrDrunk's body and used it as a point of reference to start off with...  Ultimately, his key motivator turned out to be Sarah.  Juliette also appealed to Jack's clinical/medical training as a way to break through trust barriers.  It would have done TheOthers no good to put Jack in a zoo cage as they did Sawyer, primarily because Jack's instinctst aren't that of an "in the wild" survivor, as they are Sawyer's.

Sawyer:
Sawyer was stuck into the zoo Skinner Box--which was the most basic and rudimentary  of experiments to see what he'd do to survive or escape.  Like both Jack and Kate, he was demeaned in the end by MrFriendly over the fish biscuit.  The rock was deliberately placed outside Sawyer's cage to see how long it'd take him to figure out how to work the Skinner Box for sustenance.  I believe Carl was an Other who was put there to measure Sawyer's trust level of another in captivity--and also to see if Sawyer would follow another's lead to escape.

If you remember, Carl tells Sawyer after he lets him out of the cage specifically to "run that way" and I believe it was to see if Sawyer would think for himself, under pressure would he do what someone else told him to do in a moment of crisis, and would he immediately look for his friends, or save himself?

In my opinion, the rest are symantecs, or methods to a means to determine each's initial psychological stance as of that moment in time.

I also think Kate was "presented" to Sawyer just as animals are in a zoo in a mating facility.  Also to observe their interaction with eachother.  Had Kate initially asked about Jack, I believe she'd have been paired up with Jack.

By the end of last night's epi, Jack was broken down, Kate was broken down (although we do not yet know what occurred before she was transferred to the zoo), and Sawyer was pretty much still intact until he saw how shaken Kate was.

What will be each's vulnerability next?  Who knows.

Just my observations and ideas, so flame away :)

staring in the mirror in a dress cheers
*Des8
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 06:16:25 AM by Desmond8MyPopRocks »

Offline bayrodney

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2006, 12:13:25 AM »
Great Theory.

Is Carl an other pretending to be a survivor caprtured from the rear section though?
Or was Carl and Sawyer's escape genuine, and not part of The Other's plans?

Offline Desmond8MyPopRocks

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2006, 12:15:01 AM »
Great Theory.

Is Carl an other pretending to be a survivor caprtured from the rear section though?
Or was Carl and Sawyer's escape genuine, and not part of The Other's plans?

Hey bayrodney and welcome to the Board!

I think Carl is an Other, planted there purposely to determine Sawyer's trust level of perhaps someone he thought was another "survivor" or captive.  I could be wrong, but from what I saw last night, that's just my opinion.
cheers
*Des8

Offline LostGirlDeb

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2006, 12:18:36 AM »
Wow Des8
You rock!
I am blown away!!  Excellent post and excellent observations!!
I find it all very very plausible!!
I'm going to re-watch the epi now with a fresh eye/mind
Good job!! and so far i can't find a thing wrong with your theories
(notice words so far LOL)

Offline Jas0n

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2006, 12:20:06 AM »
Howdy.  First off, let me begin by saying that I really enjoyed last night's epi.  Many said they felt it lacked, while I do not share that same sentiment.  Here are my personal observations and why I named this topic as I did.

The Skinner Box:

After Sawyer, Jack and Kate were taken by Benry and TheOthers, each was placed in an environment which would best, initially, at least test their immediate survival skills and motivational triggers to escape.

First we see Kate, who is stripped of her regular attire and forced to wear a dress which she is clearly not used to wearing.  In other words, she was stripped initially of her comfort zone and made to feel quite vulnerable.  Benry makes her put on the handcuffs which serve as a reminder to her of her status as that of a fugitive--that she's not free, or may never be "free."

Next we see Jack, who is in his own glass Skinner Box--but his initial introduction to TheOthers' testing is more psychological, to determine his motivational triggers, to see what his trust issues are and what will ultimately be a trigger to "break" him--hence Juliette is his first contact and I don't believe it to be any surprise that she closely resembles Sarah.  What ultimately transpires between Juliette and Jack is the equivalent of a mindscrew and a few tests to see what his triggers are.

For example, there is the food issue which was used to determine his trust level of Juliette.  There was also the water room--which I believe was used to determine whether Jack would ultimately save Juliette, or would he let her drown to save himself?  In the end, Juliette knew Jack went to Australia to retrieve DrDrunk's body and used it as a point of reference to start off with...  Ultimately, his key motivator turned out to be Sarah.  Juliette also appealed to Jack's clinical/medical training as a way to break through trust barriers.  It would have done TheOthers no good to put Jack in a zoo cage as they did Sawyer, primarily because Jack's instinctst aren't that of an "in the wild" survivor, as they are Sawyer's.

Sawyer:
Sawyer was stuck into the zoo Skinner Box--which was the most basic of experiments to see what he'd do to survive or excape.  Like both Jack and Kate, he was demeaned in the end by MrFriendly over the fish biscuit.  The rock was deliberately placed outside Sawyer's cage to see how long it'd take him to figure out how to work the Skinner Box for sustenance.  I believe Carl was an Other who was put there to measure Sawyer's trust level of another in captivity--and also to see if Sawyer would follow another's lead to escape.

If you remember, Carl tells Sawyer after he lets him out of the cage specifically to "run that way" and I believe it was to see if Sawyer would think for himself, under pressure would he do what someone else told him to do in a moment of crisis, and would he immediately look for his friends, or save himself?

In my opinion, the rest are symantecs, or methods to a means to determine each's initial psychological stance as of that moment in time.

I also think Kate was "presented" to Sawyer just as animals are in a zoo in a mating facility.  Also to observe their interaction with eachother.  Had Kate initially asked about Jack, I believe she'd have been paired up with Jack.

By the end of last night's epi, Jack was broken down, Kate was broken down (although we do not yet know what occurred before she was transferred to the zoo), and Sawyer was pretty much still intact until he saw how shaken Kate was.

What will be each's vulnerability next?  Who knows.

Just my observations and ideas, so flame away :)

staring in the mirror in a dress cheers
*Des8


my thoughts exactly on jack... i beleive they were trying to break down his barriers and get him to trust julliet... that may be why bed said "good work Julliet"  

I personally dont like her very much and i wouldnt trust her either! what a mean right hook....

Offline bayrodney

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2006, 12:22:44 AM »
Hey bayrodney and welcome to the Board!

I think Carl is an Other, planted there purposely to determine Sawyer's trust level of perhaps someone he thought was another "survivor" or captive.  I could be wrong, but from what I saw last night, that's just my opinion.
cheers
*Des8

Hey Desmond8MyPopRocks. Thanks, I'm actually from Australia, I know a lot of you are from America, so I'm a bit of a foreigner on these boards :P

They pretty badly damaged Carl's face IIRC, would they go that far?

Offline Desmond8MyPopRocks

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2006, 12:26:34 AM »
Hey Desmond8MyPopRocks. Thanks, I'm actually from Australia, I know a lot of you are from America, so I'm a bit of a foreigner on these boards :P

They pretty badly damaged Carl's face IIRC, would they go that far?

Welcome to our side of the very big pond, bayrodney!

If you go back and rewatch, you only really see "blood" coming from his nose, but sometimes you've gotta take one for the team.  Look at what Benry endured to infiltrate our Losties....He was shot with an arrow, tortured, beaten, etc.  Also interesting of note, when he was beaten and left in the Swan armory, he meditated to get through it.

I don't think Carl was all that roughed up, compared to what could've been done to him had they really been angry he bounced from the bear cages. It was way too easy for him to escape and it was on purpose.

cheers
*Des8

Offline demra

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2006, 12:31:40 AM »
all of it right on  the money my dear Des  as always  great post

mindsparkle

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2006, 02:13:08 AM »
absolutely outstanding post...

very well presented

That was amazing... I loved it! 

Thank you for sharing, you are right on the money... called it like a pro. 

Wish I could say you took the words right out of my mouth, but I did had some jumbled thoughts that you did put togther for me and you did give a voice to some of my feelings and intuitions... very nicely done.

Cheers for Des8!

Offline Desmond8MyPopRocks

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2006, 02:39:04 AM »
Thanks Dem, Mind and bayrodney....and my sweet LostD.

As you can tell, I'm in my "game" mode now--it's all about LOST.  I really did find TheOthers' methods, while once you considered what they were doing to be fairly rudimentary, I was fascinated to actually see each of our Losties' reactions to their tests.

This still brings back  to  mind the trailer tagline from S2:  "They're not the survivors they thought they were," and they aren't....  Even a well trained and talented physician like Jack was completely unprepared for what he would be up against when it came down to the mindscrew.  He couldn't see it for what it was--perhaps he did, but ultimately, his obsession with Sarah won over.  She was his breaking point, and everyone has one, of that there is no doubt, no matter how strong you think you are.

It will be incredibly interesting to see what Kate's breaking point was, and again, I do think it's in her "life file" having to do with secrets she's kept that we still don't know for sure or can confirm, one of which is still my belief that she has a child out there somewhere.  I think that would be the one thing that would really blow her mind and completely throw her out of her element, and perhaps lead to submissiveness--at least to the point at which she was "broken."

cheers, and glad we are discussing the show, finally
*Des8

Offline demra

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2006, 02:54:28 AM »
i think they still have a lot of work to so to get sawyer to break
and that somehow  Kate is the bait they are going to use to do it

mindsparkle

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2006, 03:27:48 AM »
I agree Derma... and I think it's going to be harsh to watch!

Offline Desmond8MyPopRocks

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2006, 04:04:10 AM »
i think they still have a lot of work to so to get sawyer to break
and that somehow  Kate is the bait they are going to use to do it

I agree and Benry knew it; I think that's why he told Kate "it's going to be a rough two weeks."  But setting the timeline to begin with is an indication to me that there is a plan TheOthers have.

cheers
*Des8

Offline lostatsea

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2006, 05:46:17 AM »

It will be incredibly interesting to see what Kate's breaking point was, and again, I do think it's in her "life file" having to do with secrets she's kept that we still don't know for sure or can confirm, one of which is still my belief that she has a child out there somewhere.  I think that would be the one thing that would really blow her mind and completely throw her out of her element, and perhaps lead to submissiveness--at least to the point at which she was "broken."

*Des8

I think Kate's breaking point will be a model airplane toy they dangle in her face, like a carrot on a stick

Offline Desmond8MyPopRocks

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Re: The Psychological Skinner Box
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2006, 06:01:47 AM »
I do not agree with you.  I believe Kate's breaking point was Benry bringing up something from Kate's past that no one else knows about--and I stick by my speculation that she has a child out there somewhere she hasn't yet told anyone about.

Either they have the kid, or they know where the kid is--THAT is the one thing that would break her into the little bits of her former self we saw last night, imho.
cheers
*Des8