Author Topic: Did Locke have to die?  (Read 3595 times)

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2010, 01:45:16 PM »
The Man in Black, before he is shoved in the hole by Jacob, was a some what sympathetic character. Crazy mom etc. Once Jacob threw him into the light hole, he became evil, filled with hatred. Smokie that we know. He was no longer sympathetic.

This

Offline Madam P

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2010, 03:59:49 PM »
Well in any case--MIB was trying to kill Jack so if Jack didn't do it first then MIB would have killed him. When he saw Jack he grabbed his knife....
Actually, MIB could've killed Jack when he knocked him out.  But he left him and tried to leave, and it wasn't until Jack tracked him down and MIB knew he wasn't going to get to leave without a fight that the knife came out.

I couldn't believe he didn't do that.  This was probably the most unbelieveable part of the whole episode for me.  Un-Locke would sooooo have gone over to rock-bashed Jack and slit his throat before starting off looking for the boat!   Definitely a character inconsistency.  But, I guess it was just a plot device -- the writers needed Jack to be alive...

Also, notice that Un-Locke didn't go all "Smokey" on Jack up there on the cliff, but had to do hand-to-hand combat with the knife.  This is further evidence that uncorking the cave-light caused Locke to "lose his powers" or whatever.  I agree that once it was re-corked, he would've regained his powers, if he'd still been alive.  (Don't know why I think that, 'cause there's no evidence, but I just do...)

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2010, 04:03:19 PM »
Well in any case--MIB was trying to kill Jack so if Jack didn't do it first then MIB would have killed him. When he saw Jack he grabbed his knife....
Actually, MIB could've killed Jack when he knocked him out.  But he left him and tried to leave, and it wasn't until Jack tracked him down and MIB knew he wasn't going to get to leave without a fight that the knife came out.

I couldn't believe he didn't do that.  This was probably the most unbelieveable part of the whole episode for me.  Un-Locke would sooooo have gone over to rock-bashed Jack and slit his throat before starting off looking for the boat!   Definitely a character inconsistency.  But, I guess it was just a plot device -- the writers needed Jack to be alive...

Also, notice that Un-Locke didn't go all "Smokey" on Jack up there on the cliff, but had to do hand-to-hand combat with the knife.  This is further evidence that uncorking the cave-light caused Locke to "lose his powers" or whatever.  I agree that once it was re-corked, he would've regained his powers, if he'd still been alive.  (Don't know why I think that, 'cause there's no evidence, but I just do...)

I wasn't bothered by MiB not slicing Jack up while he was unconcious. He just wanted to go home. He knew it would be tough if he was still on the island while it was sinking.

Offline Blitz Wing

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 01:11:08 PM »
Actually, MIB could've killed Jack when he knocked him out.  But he left him and tried to leave, and it wasn't until Jack tracked him down and MIB knew he wasn't going to get to leave without a fight that the knife came out.

Exactly, MIB had nothing to gain by killing Jack at this point nor did he really want to, he just wanted to get off the Island. The only reason MIB was fighting with Jack was because Jack bought into Jacob's thing about not letting MIB leave, and this originally came from his fake mother before MIB became smokie.

MIB's motivation was never to kill people for the hell of it, he didn't even want more people to get trapped on the Island like him. Remember the scene when Jacob & MIB was sitting on a beach watching the Black Rock sail in...Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island simply to prove MIB's wrong. How many people on that ship died as a result of this just to be used to prove MIB wrong? MIB didn't seem to want them on the Island, I suspect because he doesn't want more people trapped on the island like himself. MIB was definitely smokie by this point, and wanted to kill Jacob...so wouldn't he welcome the Black Rock people he could use to kill Jacob for him & possibly help him get off the island? Nope, seems like MIB was pissed at Jacob bringing people to the Island and then decided to use this opportunity to try to get Richard to kill Jacob. Now thinking about it, I think MIB only killed the officers on the ship when they started killing the prisoners. Then after days watching Richard suffer couldn't take it any more and saved him. Of course he'd be pissed that Jacob caused all this, so concocted the plan of getting Richard to kill Jacob for him.

And how many others were brought to the Island and died because Jacob wanted to prove MIB wrong and/or to be a replacement to Jacob? If Jacob needed a replacement, why not promote Richard?! But nope, got to bring down flight 815 and kill a bunch innocent non-candidate people in the process and then eventually as a result. Oh no the candidates got off the island....lets bring them back on the Ajira plane with some more red shirts that will eventually all die. And dead is dead, they died on the Island which is supposed to be "real life", we see a bunch of them in the side universe again....but that doesn't make everything okay as side universe IS death. Just because there's an afterlife now doesn't make getting people killed okay.

The more I think about this, the more I see Jacob as the real "Bad Guy" here. He brings people to the Island just to prove a point to MIB, and as a candidate to replace himself...regardless if other people get killed as a result. Both are unnecessary as proving MIB is wrong results in nothing and Jacob can replace himself with Richard or an Other (Also why doesn't Jacob just get Richard to bring his candidates to the Island via the sub like Others recruits thereby avoiding the unnecessary red shirt deaths?!?). So Jacob's job is to protect the Island from men who might meddle with the cork thereby extinguishing the light. Well, it doesn't seem like Jacob's doing a good job of protecting when he unnecessarily brings unintentional people to the Island (Red Shirts) and lets them wander around. Doesn't this increase the risk of somebody uncorking the island by accident?! If you add up all the people who died indirectly by Jacob's unnecessary actions, and all who the MIB killed directly to get off the island....doesn't Jacob win the kill count?

When Jack replaced the cork and the light returned, the world was once more safe.  However, if Locke was not killed before the cork was replaced, then Smokey's power would have been returned to him and the danger/battle would resume (and no 'end').

So taking the cork off makes the light go out everywhere, which the fake mother says to MIB & Jacob that it's bad. Short term, this doesn't seem to affect anything other than wrecking the island and removing the smokie power from the MIB. We see that putting the cork back on restores the light and other than that, apparently no lasting ill effects. The only person that can take the cork off is Desmond because he's immune to the effects of electromagnetism. Jacob supposedly gets Whitmore to bring Desmond to the Island as a failsafe against the MIB (Presumably to make MIB lose his smokie powers so he can be stopped from leaving the Island). MIB originally wants to kill Desmond not knowing what he's up to. So it seems like MIB's goal is not to put the light out. Later MIB finds out what's the deal with Desmond, and only then he decides he wants to destroy the Island so he can get off the Island and not because he wants to put the light out. But MIB knows supposedly if the light gets turned off, it will turn it off everywhere. If that's bad, then even if MIB got off the Island wouldn't that be bad for him too? I think this could only mean either MIB expects somebody to put the cork back on after he escapes but before something bad permanently happens, or nothing really that bad actually happens. I doubt MIB would want to leave the Island only to have either the world destroyed or all humanity killed. If either of that happened, what's the point of MIB leaving because either there's nowhere left to goto or he can't be with "his" people as they're all dead.

It seems to me that it's only Jacob that doesn't want the MIB to leave. Not because MIB will make the world worse, but because his mother didn't want him to leave and/or Jacob doesn't want MIB to leave too. Additionally Jacob would risk taking the cork off (which is really bad in his and fake mother's opinion) all to stop MIB leaving. That sounds really reckless of Jacob if his job is to protect the Island and to ensure the light doesn't go out. I don't remember preventing MIB from leaving part of his job description as Island Guardian, it was more something his fake mother wanted.


Whoa, I really went off on a rant here, LOL. I guess I'm just upset none of this was touch upon in the Finale.

Summary: Jacob bad, MIB not so bad.

Offline nomteticus

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2010, 11:11:20 PM »
The writer's biggest failiure (and I actually loved "The  End") was selling MIB as the villain. His intentions were and have always been to get off the island. He did some bad things (not worse than Ben or Sayid if you think about it) as he was trapped with a power he didn't want (smokeyness and immortality).

He wouldn't spread evil in the other world, he had no secret agenda. It's obvious that he thought the island didn't mean anything when he told Jack 'you died for nothing'. Actually, that was the most powerful line in the whole finale, and while the writers and the director were telling us that he is wrong, he may have been at least partially right. I think not killing MIB I think would have made no difference. He had already lost his Smokey powers and I'm not so sure that he would have regained them, since there was another leader who could make his own rules. Jack could have used that time to recork but he wanted to kill MIB just like he wanted to kill Locke in season 3 when the gun didn't go off.

So what did hapen to the smoke monster after Jacob's brother finally passed away? Did he dissapear? Did he return to the cave? If so, why didn't he possess Jack? Does he still exist in latent form? What was he anyway? We'll never know.

I don't want to sound like a European douche, but why does the US audience need a villain-incarnate? Can't the villain just be a concept (like war, starvation, tyrrany), and not a person? They did a good job to show us the characters struggling with their own demons, did we literally have to see a fight between Jack and MIB (btw did anyone doubt the outcome of the fight) ? Flashback to Sawyer/TomFriendly shootout, Ben/Jack fistfight, Keamy/Others+Losties showdown, Dharma/TimeTravellers conflict. The fight at the cliffs and MIB's (pointless) death is the only part of the finale that I absolutely loathed.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2010, 11:10:13 AM »
Does everyone so quickly forget the Light? And what happens when it goes out? MiB may not have had the intention to obliterate all humanity, but it would have been a side effect of getting off the island. They are mutually exclusive. Also, I really don't think that Jacob "Brought" 815 to the island. I think he knew it was going to crash anyway, and selected his candidates from people who would be on the plane. The reason people hated MiB's death is they were really hoping for an M.Night twist at the end. MiB was never concerned with what might happen to the world if the Light went out. He was selfish. Also how can anyone say he didn't kill anyone for "No Reason?" Sliced Zoe up because she was told not to talk to him. All those innocent people at the Temple? The only people we KNOW Jacob personally was responsible for killing were the people he said he "Brought" to the island on the Black Rock that were killed in the crash. Also I suspect he was resposible for the Dharma purge, because they were endangering the Light, andthat was a measure of last resort seeing as how he let them come and go for about 25 years if my memoory serves.

Offline Madam P

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2010, 09:27:03 AM »
Actually, MIB could've killed Jack when he knocked him out.  But he left him and tried to leave, and it wasn't until Jack tracked him down and MIB knew he wasn't going to get to leave without a fight that the knife came out.

Exactly, MIB had nothing to gain by killing Jack at this point nor did he really want to, he just wanted to get off the Island.

I disagree that he had nothing to gain.  As you said, he wanted to get off the island.  Jack had told him flat-out he was going to try to kill him to keep him from getting off the island.  So I'd say he had a lot to gain by killing Jack at that point -- he had everything to gain -- he had his chance to get off the island!  And as we saw, Jack (and Kate) ended up stopping him in the end.  If he'd slit Jack's throat back at the cave mouth, there would've been no delay with a fight on the cliff that enabled Kate to shoot him, so he'd have gotten away. 

It just seemed weird to me -- he was systematically eliminating anything and everything that was standing in the way of him getting off the island.  So here's Jack, lying there vulnerable (FINALLY!  a loophole because the cork was off) and he's thisclose to succeeding in the goal he's had for thousands of years, and he's just gonna walk away without eliminating that final potential stumbling block?  (which turned out to actually BE a stumbling block?)  Didn't fit the character, to me.  But I guess we can chalk it up to "he was so excited to be so close and/or he was so confuddled because he was finally mortal" or whatever...

(I like the rest of your "rant", though, by the way!   ;)  Right there with ya!  Well, except I'm on the fence about MIB's "altruistic" motives for not wanting more people on the island.) 

I think MIB was very practical.  He wanted to leave.  Period.  If all these people coming to the island were going to get in his way, he wanted them dead and gone.  If they could possibly help him, bring 'em on and he'd make use of them.  If they were going to be like Rose and Bernard and stay out of it, I think he was perfectly fine with leaving them alone.  I don't think he had this evil "mwahahahaha... more souls to destroy!" outlook on it, nor was he all "oh, don't kill the poor innocent people, Jacob!"  I think he really couldn't have cared less one way or the other, but was only interested in his goal.  He saw no point in killing people needlessly, but if they "needed" to die because they might stand in his way, he did not hesitate to do it.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 10:20:26 AM by Madam P »

Offline Madam P

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2010, 10:18:54 AM »
Does everyone so quickly forget the Light? And what happens when it goes out? MiB may not have had the intention to obliterate all humanity, but it would have been a side effect of getting off the island.

I think that's a stretch.  We don't know that for sure because Darlton chose not to tell us about the "mythology" of the Island -- that was on a need-to-know basis and apparently they felt we didn't need to know it.  All we know is the nebulous dark "warning" that Crazy Mom passed on to Jacob, and it was pretty darned nebulous.  And as nomteticus noted above, what we definitely saw as the short-term result of putting out the light was the destruction of the Island and making Smokey mortal again, and I'm having a hard time seeing that as a precursor to the obliteration of all humanity.  (I suppose it could be -- maybe the island was just the first thing to go, and eventually all the continents would've caved in, I dunno.) 

As I've said elsewhere, I just wish they'd told us more about that mythology, so we would know whether the characters were right or wrong in their assumptions.  Doesn't matter as to what happened, I guess, because people act on their beliefs, and if they believed as you do about the light then they'd act accordingly... I just wish I knew, is all.  The eternal human condition, right?   :D

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2010, 11:02:52 AM »
Yeah I guess the difference with those that want to "Know" and myself is that I feel like they told us enough that I feel I do know. The ominous warning was accompanied by a catastrophic destruction of the island. If the Light went out and nothing happened I would have suspected the side effects of MiB getting off the island. The Light goes out and earth starts shattering. Kind of telling that the warning may have held some water.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2010, 11:28:37 AM »
I think sometimes people miss the bigger point.

Locke died when Ben strangled him.    The smoke monster died when it was trapped in human form after the island was uncorked.    If the smoke monster had left the island as a human, he couldn't have caused that much trouble, but to keep him human would mean leaving the island uncorked.    That was destroying the island, and we can assume the rest of the world would have followed suit.   

Jacob's brother also died, although some part of him was changed into the smoke monster "the fate worse than death", the rest of him died.     Jacob's brother just wanted to leave, that wasn't bad in itself, but for the smoke monster to leave was a very bad thing.    If you didn't notice, the smoke monster had the tendancy to kill a lot of people.    Maybe if crazy momma had just told her son that she loved so much she didn't give a name that when he left the island he couldn't tell anyone about it, and then explained why, we wouldn't have had all the drama.    But she was crazy.   

The smoke monster was bad and had to die.   The light was good and needed to be protected.     The protectors went about their jobs in different ways.    Jacob did some bad things, we can assume that Hurley and Ben tried a kindler, gentler approach.   

Offline MachThree

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2010, 12:24:28 PM »
As far as I can see, MiB needed all the candidates dead in order to leave.  It wasn't so much him leaving the island that would ruin the rest of the world (i.e. he himself wouldn't be spreading evil per se), but the fact that with all of the candidates dead, there'd be no one to protect "the light" and eventually bad things would happen as a result.  I guess I can't say that someone would have uncorked the light, since it seems only Desmond can do that and survive, but I think we got the idea from Across the Sea that the light needed to be protected from everyone, not just MiB. 

As for having Desmond uncork the light, I guess MiB figured that this act would kill the candidates and then he'd be able to leave in the window between that time and when the island destroyed itself and took him with it.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2010, 02:20:17 PM »
There are 2 dead bodies of Locke on the island now
and 1 of Jacob's brother.

Offline Holland34

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2010, 03:33:15 PM »
There are 2 dead bodies of Locke on the island now
and 1 of Jacob's brother.
That's kind of funny... I hadn't thought about it in that way before.

Offline Madam P

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2010, 04:53:33 PM »
There are 2 dead bodies of Locke on the island now
and 1 of Jacob's brother.
That's kind of funny... I hadn't thought about it in that way before.

And kind of weird.  I was wondering if "it" would be gone, or would look different when they walked over to the edge of the cliff and looked over, but nope.   Still just John Locke lying there kinda like he always looks when he falls from a tall height.   :-\

Offline BurkRoyer

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Re: Did Locke have to die?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2010, 07:34:17 PM »
There are 2 dead bodies of Locke on the island now
and 1 of Jacob's brother.

Now that is funny ;D