Author Topic: St Elsewhere?  (Read 5652 times)

Offline lostlady

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2010, 09:38:44 AM »
Either way it was 'real' to them and they all met up with each other once they died. I personally think it is option 2. They survived the crash.

Offline shadow

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2010, 09:51:08 AM »
everyone did not die in the original plane crash

That is your opinion.

The way I see it, there are 2 ways to look at it.
1.  The plane crashed, they all died.  The events on the island was a test.  Eventually everyone on the island 'dies.'  They move on and meet up at the church and go into the light.
OR
2.  The plane crashed, they survived.  The island events happened in real time, and everyone eventually dies.  They meet up at the church and go into the light.



Christian told Jack "Some died before you and some died long after". That rules out any interpretation of them all dieing in the plane crash.


Offline lostjava

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2010, 09:59:02 AM »
everyone did not die in the original plane crash

That is your opinion.

The way I see it, there are 2 ways to look at it.
1.  The plane crashed, they all died.  The events on the island was a test.  Eventually everyone on the island 'dies.'  They move on and meet up at the church and go into the light.
OR
2.  The plane crashed, they survived.  The island events happened in real time, and everyone eventually dies.  They meet up at the church and go into the light.



Christian told Jack "Some died before you and some died long after". That rules out any interpretation of them all dieing in the plane crash.



I love how the thought police come out and tell everyone who doesn't share their opinion is wrong. 

There were other people on the island that weren't in the plane crash.  They could have died in other ways and ended up on the island.   Ben, Desmond, Richard, Juliet.  They got on the island different ways and times.

I'm not saying the other option is wrong, thus the term 'option.'  I'm saying there's another way to look at it.  Especially since they show the crash during the credits.  No one is around.  And the plane isn't torn apart to be a camp.

Offline shadow

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2010, 10:10:02 AM »
I love how the thought police come out and tell everyone who doesn't share their opinion is wrong. 

There were other people on the island that weren't in the plane crash.  They could have died in other ways and ended up on the island.   Ben, Desmond, Richard, Juliet.  They got on the island different ways and times. I'm not saying the other option is wrong, thus the term 'option.'  I'm saying there's another way to look at it. 

So if I said "I think that Oceanic 815 took off from London", no one is allowed to point out that the show explicitly contradicts my opinion?

The fact that Ben and Juliet are at the church is further evidence that they survived as these people did not meet the survivors until after the crash.

Especially since they show the crash during the credits.  No one is around.  And the plane isn't torn apart to be a camp.

No bodies, either, so the plane must have been empty and flown by an artificial intelligence which imagined this story of survivors to keep itself occupied until its batteries ran out and it died.   ::)

Offline CastawayCayley

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2010, 10:10:45 AM »
everyone did not die in the original plane crash

That is your opinion.

The way I see it, there are 2 ways to look at it.
1.  The plane crashed, they all died.  The events on the island was a test.  Eventually everyone on the island 'dies.'  They move on and meet up at the church and go into the light.
OR
2.  The plane crashed, they survived.  The island events happened in real time, and everyone eventually dies.  They meet up at the church and go into the light.



Christian told Jack "Some died before you and some died long after". That rules out any interpretation of them all dieing in the plane crash.



I love how the thought police come out and tell everyone who doesn't share their opinion is wrong. 

There were other people on the island that weren't in the plane crash.  They could have died in other ways and ended up on the island.   Ben, Desmond, Richard, Juliet.  They got on the island different ways and times.

I'm not saying the other option is wrong, thus the term 'option.'  I'm saying there's another way to look at it.  Especially since they show the crash during the credits.  No one is around.  And the plane isn't torn apart to be a camp.

Take it easy, no one is being the the thought police. This is a discussion board. People try to sway opinions with arguments. No one said you have to believe what they do or get out. If you're not open to discussion about other possibilities then why bother posting? As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and disagreeing with yours is no worse than you disagreeing with theirs.

Offline Maxor127

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2010, 10:20:35 AM »
I love how the thought police come out and tell everyone who doesn't share their opinion is wrong. 

There were other people on the island that weren't in the plane crash.  They could have died in other ways and ended up on the island.   Ben, Desmond, Richard, Juliet.  They got on the island different ways and times. I'm not saying the other option is wrong, thus the term 'option.'  I'm saying there's another way to look at it. 

So if I said "I think that Oceanic 815 took off from London", no one is allowed to point out that the show explicitly contradicts my opinion?

The fact that Ben and Juliet are at the church is further evidence that they survived as these people did not meet the survivors until after the crash.

Especially since they show the crash during the credits.  No one is around.  And the plane isn't torn apart to be a camp.

No bodies, either, so the plane must have been empty and flown by an artificial intelligence which imagined this story of survivors to keep itself occupied until its batteries ran out and it died.   ::)

lol... yeah... to be fair, the end credits does confuse things and was pretty pointless.  If it had some hidden meaning, I don't know what.  But I'm positive they didn't die in the 815 flight.  Even if you say that the island was some afterlife that led to another afterlife, which could explain Ben and Juliet being there, then you still have to explain people dying and becoming ghosts and then escaping the island and time traveling to a time when Dharma lived on this island that wasn't real with people who were already dead, and it goes on and on...

Offline lostlady

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2010, 10:24:06 AM »
I think they purposely put in that credit to create havoc amoung the fans! lol. I think it is a red herring and what happened, happened. They survived the crash. Personally I see the credits as a homage to the crash that started it all.

Offline lostjava

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2010, 10:29:09 AM »
So if I said "I think that Oceanic 815 took off from London", no one is allowed to point out that the show explicitly contradicts my opinion?

NO, that is not what I'm saying.  It's been know since the beginning that the flight left Sydney.  To argue that would be silly.  It was specifically stated on the show.  But, no one stated at exactly what point people died.  As you pointed out, they died at different times.  When and how wasn't specifically stated.  These allows for interpretation.

The fact that Ben and Juliet are at the church is further evidence that they survived as these people did not meet the survivors until after the crash.

I disagree.  It's not evidence of survival.  Yes they met after the crash.  But they all met on the island.  I'm suggesting that they were dead when they met on the island.   Is goofy as it sounds, they all died at different times, and met at this point as part of the test.

No bodies, either, so the plane must have been empty and flown by an artificial intelligence which imagined this story of survivors to keep itself occupied until its batteries ran out and it died.   ::)

I would think the bodies would be on the plane, still strapped in their seats.  I'm no expert on airline crashes.  (And never hope to be.)

Take it easy, no one is being the the thought police. This is a discussion board. People try to sway opinions with arguments. No one said you have to believe what they do or get out. If you're not open to discussion about other possibilities then why bother posting? As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and disagreeing with yours is no worse than you disagreeing with theirs.

That is my point.  I'm suggesting another possibility.  And the response I get is "you're wrong."  I've never told anyone else they were wrong.  In fact, I had the same theory as they did up until the credits.  That's when I changed my mind.  I'm not saying I'm right or wrong.  It just my opinion.

Offline lostjava

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2010, 10:29:47 AM »
I think they purposely put in that credit to create havoc amoung the fans! lol.

If that's the case, then yeah, they got me!

Offline lostjava

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2010, 10:35:55 AM »
lol... yeah... to be fair, the end credits does confuse things and was pretty pointless.  If it had some hidden meaning, I don't know what.  But I'm positive they didn't die in the 815 flight.  Even if you say that the island was some afterlife that led to another afterlife, which could explain Ben and Juliet being there, then you still have to explain people dying and becoming ghosts and then escaping the island and time traveling to a time when Dharma lived on this island that wasn't real with people who were already dead, and it goes on and on...

Was it pointless?  If it really was, then yeah, I'd have to go with the other opinion.  If it wasn't, I have to stick with mine.  I guess that's the issue.  The last 20 seconds threw me for a loop.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it.  Could be.

But to your second part.  Why would we have to explain the time traveling, leaving the island, etc?  If it's a kind of test they had to go through.  So what the experienced whether on or off the island is part of the test.  You're right though, it would go on and on and I have to do some work and can't play here all day. 

If they died at crash time, or during island events.... either way, they needed the island to move on.

Offline CastawayCayley

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2010, 10:44:12 AM »
Take it easy, no one is being the the thought police. This is a discussion board. People try to sway opinions with arguments. No one said you have to believe what they do or get out. If you're not open to discussion about other possibilities then why bother posting? As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and disagreeing with yours is no worse than you disagreeing with theirs.

That is my point.  I'm suggesting another possibility.  And the response I get is "you're wrong."  I've never told anyone else they were wrong.  In fact, I had the same theory as they did up until the credits.  That's when I changed my mind.  I'm not saying I'm right or wrong.  It just my opinion.

Emphatically telling someone they're wrong is annoying yes, but not out of bounds. You were beginning to creep over to another level by taking the argument to the "thought police" territory. That was all I was trying to point out. Frankly I feel your opinion is as incredibly valid as any others, even though I've decided, for my own personal sanity, that the wreckage was more of a memory/homage than any indication that everyone died on Sept. 22, 2004.

Offline lostjava

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2010, 10:48:34 AM »
Emphatically telling someone they're wrong is annoying yes, but not out of bounds. You were beginning to creep over to another level by taking the argument to the "thought police" territory. That was all I was trying to point out. Frankly I feel your opinion is as incredibly valid as any others, even though I've decided, for my own personal sanity, that the wreckage was more of a memory/homage than any indication that everyone died on Sept. 22, 2004.

I think it being out of bounds depends.  If I said that 815 left London, the absolutely it's acceptable to tell someone wrong.  But when it's something ambiguous, I don't think it's acceptable.  That's just me.  But this is the internet after all.  I've seen worse.

I see plenty of valid opinions.  If that was a homage, then I hate them for messing with me!  I wonder if they'll ever let us know.

Offline shadow

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2010, 10:50:21 AM »
NO, that is not what I'm saying.  It's been know since the beginning that the flight left Sydney.  To argue that would be silly.  It was specifically stated on the show.  But, no one stated at exactly what point people died.  As you pointed out, they died at different times.  When and how wasn't specifically stated.  These allows for interpretation.

And it has been said, time and time again by the show's creators that they did not die in the crash of 815.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Purgatory_%28debunked_theory%29
(emphasis added)
Quote
    *  The purgatory theory was debunked by J.J. Abrams in a Zap2it interview published in March 14, 2005, "though he claimed to like the idea."
    * The theory was again expressly debunked by executive producer Damon Lindelof in a New York Times interview published on May 25, 2006. Noting the fact that the finale of Season 2 shows the outside world in the present (as opposed to a flashback) for the first time, Lindelof added: "People who believe that they're in purgatory or that they're subjects of an experiment are going to start reassessing those theories based on the fact that we are literally showing you the outside world."
    * This theory was rejected again by Damon Lindelof on the October 6, 2006 podcast.
    * Following the airing of "D.O.C." and Naomi's revelation that the wreckage of Oceanic Flight 815 was allegedly found and there were no survivors, the "purgatory" theory was again debunked twice; first by Damon Lindelof in an interview with E! Online [1], stating that "If we did such a thing after repeatedly stating otherwise, we'd be tarred and feathered!"; and second, by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse in the April 30, 2007 podcast, insisting out that "we were not lying, it's not purgatory" and listing several possible other explanations for Naomi's revelation.
    * Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse again debunked this theory in a Lost recap special when they added that the Losties are not dead and "do exist somewhere in the space time continuum."

If you are not going to take their word on the matter, there is really nothing more that I can say.

Offline jamesl

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2010, 11:17:47 AM »

...
There were other people on the island that weren't in the plane crash.  They could have died in other ways and ended up on the island.   Ben, Desmond, Richard, Juliet.  They got on the island different ways and times.
...

if everyone died during the plane crash then those people you mentioned were ghosts and only existed in the after life

and then what is the alt time line ?
an alt existence for ghosts ?

and Maxor makes good points
"then you still have to explain people dying and becoming ghosts and then escaping the island and time traveling to a time when Dharma lived on this island that wasn't real with people who were already dead, and it goes on and on..."
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 11:20:49 AM by jamesl »

Offline lostfan777

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Re: St Elsewhere?
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 01:45:40 PM »
The way I see it, there are 2 ways to look at it.
1.  The plane crashed, they all died.  The events on the island was a test.  Eventually everyone on the island 'dies.'  They move on and meet up at the church and go into the light.
OR
2.  The plane crashed, they survived.  The island events happened in real time, and everyone eventually dies.  They meet up at the church and go into the light.

I think you said it as plainly as possible with your option #2.  Everyone dies sometime as Christian said to Jack.  Alot of people died in the crash.   Our main characters did not.  They survived the crash.  Some died shortly afterward (Boone, Shannon).  Some left the island (the O6).  John Locke left and was killed by Ben off-island.  Some returned and died later on-island (Sayid, Sun).  Some escaped and lived out their lives (Kate, Sawyer).  Some may have lived many many years (Hurley).  At whatever point they died, they came to the ATL where they lived in limbo or purgatory or whatever, until they would be ready to move on.  Desmond decided not to wait for them to come to that point themselves and helped them come together so that they could move on together.  Others like Daniel and Charlotte, Miles and his father, will move on when they're ready with the people that meant the most to them.  I can only hope that death in reality is as comforting as this!