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Do you think Ben has turned evil again or playing Locke?

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Author Topic: Is Ben Bad or Good  (Read 8446 times)

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2010, 05:19:41 PM »
I was in the MIB was "good" camp for the longest time.....I still don't see where the good line begins and bad line ends with either of them...meaning I don't think Flock is evil nor do I think Jacob is a saint. This is not a true good versus evil story.

There are shades of grey within Jacob and his brother. There are NO shades of grey within FLocke. The only "good" FLocke has shown is in his apparent sympathy towards Claire, apparently since Claire had her son "taken" from her much like he was taken from his real mother. Other than that, that, though, nothing FLocke has done can be construed as "good". It's as if Smokie is the manifestation of all the anger and hate that lived within Jacob's brother, and none of the positives.

DING DING DING! Johnny Tell him what he's won!

I agree with everything except I think MIB is Flocke just like Anakin was Darth Vader.

Oh yeah. I agree with that too. I just like the "No Shades of Grey in Flocke" comment.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2010, 05:20:05 PM »
I was in the MIB was "good" camp for the longest time.....I still don't see where the good line begins and bad line ends with either of them...meaning I don't think Flock is evil nor do I think Jacob is a saint. This is not a true good versus evil story.

There are shades of grey within Jacob and his brother. There are NO shades of grey within FLocke. The only "good" FLocke has shown is in his apparent sympathy towards Claire, apparently since Claire had her son "taken" from her much like he was taken from his real mother. Other than that, that, though, nothing FLocke has done can be construed as "good". It's as if Smokie is the manifestation of all the anger and hate that lived within Jacob's brother, and none of the positives.

DING DING DING! Johnny Tell him what he's won!


Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2010, 05:28:01 PM »
I was in the MIB was "good" camp for the longest time.....I still don't see where the good line begins and bad line ends with either of them...meaning I don't think Flock is evil nor do I think Jacob is a saint. This is not a true good versus evil story.

There are shades of grey within Jacob and his brother. There are NO shades of grey within FLocke. The only "good" FLocke has shown is in his apparent sympathy towards Claire, apparently since Claire had her son "taken" from her much like he was taken from his real mother. Other than that, that, though, nothing FLocke has done can be construed as "good". It's as if Smokie is the manifestation of all the anger and hate that lived within Jacob's brother, and none of the positives.

At it's core? He is MIB. He is a man that wants off the island and wants to go home. What began as a small innocent boy that took issue with a lady that killed his mother and transformed into what you (sledgeland) as evil or bad is the story of MIB. Can you fault a man/boy who has been fed up? Who didn't buy into the island? Remember he never had a choice it was "we would like you to stay...and if you don't we will kill ya...."

No MIB is not evil...is he bad? That could be debatable. Is it bad for you steal bread? Is it wrong to steal bread to feed yourself?

Was it wrong for the mother or Jacob to kill that tribe? MIB killed his stepmother. Why? A women that wasn't his mother and killed his real mother then killed his tribe. So Jacob did a number on him. Was that a nice thing Jacob did? MIB was created in his mind let me off the Island so I can go home and if you stand in my way I will kill you. Killing is wrong....but if you created the killer?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 05:32:36 PM by Bostonlost »

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2010, 05:50:07 PM »
I was in the MIB was "good" camp for the longest time.....I still don't see where the good line begins and bad line ends with either of them...meaning I don't think Flock is evil nor do I think Jacob is a saint. This is not a true good versus evil story.

There are shades of grey within Jacob and his brother. There are NO shades of grey within FLocke. The only "good" FLocke has shown is in his apparent sympathy towards Claire, apparently since Claire had her son "taken" from her much like he was taken from his real mother. Other than that, that, though, nothing FLocke has done can be construed as "good". It's as if Smokie is the manifestation of all the anger and hate that lived within Jacob's brother, and none of the positives.

At it's core? He is MIB. He is a man that wants off the island and wants to go home. What began as a small innocent boy that took issue with a lady that killed his mother and transformed into what you (sledgeland) as evil or bad is the story of MIB. Can you fault a man/boy who has been fed up? Who didn't buy into the island? Remember he never had a choice it was "we would like you to stay...and if you don't we will kill ya...."

No MIB is not evil...is he bad? That could be debatable. Is it bad for you steal bread? Is it wrong to steal bread to feed yourself?

Ah, so slitting Zoe's throat because Widmore told her not to talk to FLocke was merely the equivalent of stealing bread because you're hungry lol...gotcha. Claiming a human life is "pointless" and worthy of murdering if it can't help you further your own selfish goals is merely being "bad", and even THAT is debatable. Gotcha.

Again: FLocke has done NOTHING that can be characterized as "good" in any way, shape or form. Jacob's brother, before he "became" or "released" or "manifested into" Smokie had shades of grey to him, and had reasons to be sympathetic. But I'm sorry, trying to pretend that Smokie simply wants to "go home" like some island version of E.T. is ridiculous lol. Smokie wants everyone killed and wants the island destroyed. "He"/It wants the light extinguished and everything and everyone to "cease to exist". If you want to classify that as maybe being "bad", you're underplaying the reality of it all.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 05:54:44 PM by WhatThe »

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2010, 05:52:52 PM »
I was in the MIB was "good" camp for the longest time.....I still don't see where the good line begins and bad line ends with either of them...meaning I don't think Flock is evil nor do I think Jacob is a saint. This is not a true good versus evil story.

There are shades of grey within Jacob and his brother. There are NO shades of grey within FLocke. The only "good" FLocke has shown is in his apparent sympathy towards Claire, apparently since Claire had her son "taken" from her much like he was taken from his real mother. Other than that, that, though, nothing FLocke has done can be construed as "good". It's as if Smokie is the manifestation of all the anger and hate that lived within Jacob's brother, and none of the positives.

At it's core? He is MIB. He is a man that wants off the island and wants to go home. What began as a small innocent boy that took issue with a lady that killed his mother and transformed into what you (sledgeland) as evil or bad is the story of MIB. Can you fault a man/boy who has been fed up? Who didn't buy into the island? Remember he never had a choice it was "we would like you to stay...and if you don't we will kill ya...."

No MIB is not evil...is he bad? That could be debatable. Is it bad for you steal bread? Is it wrong to steal bread to feed yourself?

Was it wrong for the mother or Jacob to kill that tribe? MIB killed his stepmother. Why? A women that wasn't his mother and killed his real mother then killed his tribe. So Jacob did a number on him. Was that a nice thing Jacob did? MIB was created in his mind let me off the Island so I can go home and if you stand in my way I will kill you. Killing is wrong....but if you created the killer?

I totally see what you are saying. After 'Across the Sea' I had a hell of a alot more sympathy for MIB than I did before. However, in the here and now, I still see MIB as the bad guy (for lack of a better term). Basically, yeah, he was wronged as a kid, but that doesn't give him the right to do whatever he wants now. Every jail is filled with people who have some sob story about how they are just a product of their circumstances. It doesn't justify their crime. If MIB wants off the Island but kills everyone in the world in the process...well thats bad enough for me.

Hell, I hate him just for killing Jin and Sun.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2010, 06:10:13 PM »
I was in the MIB was "good" camp for the longest time.....I still don't see where the good line begins and bad line ends with either of them...meaning I don't think Flock is evil nor do I think Jacob is a saint. This is not a true good versus evil story.

There are shades of grey within Jacob and his brother. There are NO shades of grey within FLocke. The only "good" FLocke has shown is in his apparent sympathy towards Claire, apparently since Claire had her son "taken" from her much like he was taken from his real mother. Other than that, that, though, nothing FLocke has done can be construed as "good". It's as if Smokie is the manifestation of all the anger and hate that lived within Jacob's brother, and none of the positives.

At it's core? He is MIB. He is a man that wants off the island and wants to go home. What began as a small innocent boy that took issue with a lady that killed his mother and transformed into what you (sledgeland) as evil or bad is the story of MIB. Can you fault a man/boy who has been fed up? Who didn't buy into the island? Remember he never had a choice it was "we would like you to stay...and if you don't we will kill ya...."

No MIB is not evil...is he bad? That could be debatable. Is it bad for you steal bread? Is it wrong to steal bread to feed yourself?

Ah, so slitting Zoe's throat because Widmore told her not to talk to FLocke was merely the equivalent of stealing bread because you're hungry lol...gotcha. Claiming a human life is "pointless" and worthy of murdering if it can't help you further your own selfish goals is merely being "bad", and even THAT is debatable. Gotcha.

Again: FLocke has done NOTHING that can be characterized as "good" in any way, shape or form. Jacob's brother, before he "became" or "released" or "manifested into" Smokie had shades of grey to him, and had reasons to be sympathetic. But I'm sorry, trying to pretend that Smokie simply wants to "go home" like some island version of E.T. is ridiculous lol. Smokie wants everyone killed and wants the island destroyed. "He"/It wants the light extinguished and everything and everyone to "cease to exist". If you want to classify that as maybe being "bad", you're underplaying the reality of it all.



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Offline lostandfree

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2010, 06:19:48 PM »
I don't really know if Ben is good or bad at this point, but I think I'm leaning towards bad.  Maybe he would have been good but perhaps seeing Widmore again right in front of him brought out the anger and opened the wound regarding Alex' death.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2010, 06:20:30 PM »
I don't really know if Ben is good or bad at this point, but I think I'm leaning towards bad.  Maybe he would have been good but perhaps seeing Widmore again right in front of him brought out the anger and opened the wound regarding Alex' death.

This. I am agreeing with WAY too many people today. Where is Oz?

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2010, 06:28:50 PM »
I was in the MIB was "good" camp for the longest time.....I still don't see where the good line begins and bad line ends with either of them...meaning I don't think Flock is evil nor do I think Jacob is a saint. This is not a true good versus evil story.

There are shades of grey within Jacob and his brother. There are NO shades of grey within FLocke. The only "good" FLocke has shown is in his apparent sympathy towards Claire, apparently since Claire had her son "taken" from her much like he was taken from his real mother. Other than that, that, though, nothing FLocke has done can be construed as "good". It's as if Smokie is the manifestation of all the anger and hate that lived within Jacob's brother, and none of the positives.

At it's core? He is MIB. He is a man that wants off the island and wants to go home. What began as a small innocent boy that took issue with a lady that killed his mother and transformed into what you (sledgeland) as evil or bad is the story of MIB. Can you fault a man/boy who has been fed up? Who didn't buy into the island? Remember he never had a choice it was "we would like you to stay...and if you don't we will kill ya...."

No MIB is not evil...is he bad? That could be debatable. Is it bad for you steal bread? Is it wrong to steal bread to feed yourself?

Ah, so slitting Zoe's throat because Widmore told her not to talk to FLocke was merely the equivalent of stealing bread because you're hungry lol...gotcha. Claiming a human life is "pointless" and worthy of murdering if it can't help you further your own selfish goals is merely being "bad", and even THAT is debatable. Gotcha.

Again: FLocke has done NOTHING that can be characterized as "good" in any way, shape or form. Jacob's brother, before he "became" or "released" or "manifested into" Smokie had shades of grey to him, and had reasons to be sympathetic. But I'm sorry, trying to pretend that Smokie simply wants to "go home" like some island version of E.T. is ridiculous lol. Smokie wants everyone killed and wants the island destroyed. "He"/It wants the light extinguished and everything and everyone to "cease to exist". If you want to classify that as maybe being "bad", you're underplaying the reality of it all.

I see would this be the same Zoe that was pulling guns out on people? Would this be the same Zoe that is teamed up with Widmore torturing Desmond? Trapping and caging others?

Again I am not saying slicing her neck was a good thing...But if you hang out with lions your gonna get bit every once and awhile. Shame on her. I don't see this as you see it. Maybe it's the city kid/comic book geek in me people are sometimes made this way. Do you think that if MIB's fake mommy kissed him on the cheek and said see ya, he would be the way he is now?

I see a man that is trying to get off that Island by any means. A island that has held him captive. What has evil about the donkey wheel?

Look I don't agree with killing people, but all here are flawed.

Offline RM

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2010, 07:23:22 PM »
As much as I hate Ben, I was glad to see him return to bad behavior.  [It will ruin the show for me if his reward for kidnapping a baby and leaving his mother to fend for herself in the wild is to wind up with a "happy ending" in a loving family unit with those same people.  But, after seeing Hurley apparently regain total recall of his Island life, maybe Danielle will do the same and ultimately reject Ben.]

Maybe, Ben killed Widmore to prevent him from giving vital information to UnLocke partially, but it was also partly because he was jealous that Jacob visted Widmore and out of revenge for his wanting Penny to die in payback for Alex.  Ben has killed people because they "don't matter" (Cesar) but someone the death of Alex does matter because she's special to him?  Total and utter BS.

I'm so hoping that this return to rat-fink mode will wind up with Ben not getting a "happy ending" in the X timeline, but I fear that TPTB have given in to how popular Michael Emerson has made the character so that they felt they had to "redeem" him rather than kill him off as the bad guy ending he deserves.

Offline jkbeaulieu

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2010, 09:47:40 PM »
Ben has his reasons for doing what he does.  Does he want the island to himself like Locke has promised him?  Maybe.  But at the end of the episode Locke tells him he is going to destroy the island.  So why at this point is Ben motivated to do Locke's bidding?  Did he kill Widmore to score a few trust points with Locke?  He must know that ultimately it was Locke posing as Alex that manipulated him into killing Jacob.  So he got his revenge on Widmore.  Will he try to get revenge on Locke when the opportunity presents itself?  Will he have to kill anyone else along the way?  Ben is definitely one messed up little dude but maybe there is method in his madness.  Will find out Sunday...  which will put an end to all this speculation.

Offline E.S.B.

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2010, 11:56:44 PM »
As much as I hate Ben, I was glad to see him return to bad behavior.  [It will ruin the show for me if his reward for kidnapping a baby and leaving his mother to fend for herself in the wild is to wind up with a "happy ending" in a loving family unit with those same people.  But, after seeing Hurley apparently regain total recall of his Island life, maybe Danielle will do the same and ultimately reject Ben.]

Maybe, Ben killed Widmore to prevent him from giving vital information to UnLocke partially, but it was also partly because he was jealous that Jacob visted Widmore and out of revenge for his wanting Penny to die in payback for Alex.  Ben has killed people because they "don't matter" (Cesar) but someone the death of Alex does matter because she's special to him?  Total and utter BS.

I'm so hoping that this return to rat-fink mode will wind up with Ben not getting a "happy ending" in the X timeline, but I fear that TPTB have given in to how popular Michael Emerson has made the character so that they felt they had to "redeem" him rather than kill him off as the bad guy ending he deserves.

I think Ben can redeem himself and make the right choices.  But he still has to pay for all the bad things he has done, and there will not be a happy ending for him.

Offline Desmond8MyPopRocks

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2010, 01:37:18 AM »
Ben has shown that he has the capacity to love--particularly Alex.  I do believe that Ben made the "deal" he did with Smokey as a means to an end, that being that if Ben gets to guard the Island, he'll perhaps be able to bring Alex back.  Remember, Ben has seen his dead mother, although I'm not sure it was really her.

But, I do believe that Ben made the Island Deal so he could ultimately get Alex back--maybe to turn back time to before the bomb exploded so he can have his Alex back.

Best line of the night was when Smokey tells Ben, "You never cease to amaze me, Ben."

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Offline saltwater

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2010, 10:19:50 AM »
It seem like Ben has just given up trying to be anything, After his speech to Illana I thought he might redeem himself like Sayiid did and help the Losties defeat the MIB but after watching this weeks episode I think he just does not care anymore, (even when Flocke told him he could have the island he didnt seem bothered he is resigned to whatever fate (or Flocke) might deal out to him.

Everybody has the capacity to be good or evil but I think the scales are definatley touching the floor on the black side for Ben, he has killed so many people and even though I feel sorry for him sometimes (More I suspect to do with emmersons brilliant acting than anything else) He does deserve it if he doesnt last till the end..

Maybe he will, maybe he will survive on the island and raise a crazy family with crazy claire, imagine thier children together, Now there is a sequel in the making ;)

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Is Ben Bad or Good
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2010, 12:17:48 PM »
I'm still leaning toward Ben playing a long con on MIB.  First, Ben was supposed to be a three episode character.  When it became clear to TPTB that he was popular, they wrote him into the story for the long haul.  So after that gut wrenching scene between Ben and Ilana, where Ben confesses his sins and Ilana accepts him in (symbolically absolving him), and after that scene has proven to be a fan favorite, I find it hard to imagine that they would just have Ben do a 180 and go back to being evil.  I think the character that Emerson has played so well deserves a better ending than that (although I think Richard deserved better also and look what he got!).  If Ben doesn't have an ace up his sleeve to help defeat MIB, I'll be disappointed, and his ATL 'happy ending' certainly wouldn't fit either.  I'm putting all my chips on Ben outwitting MIB.  Sure, he killed Widmore in cold blood and that is never a 'good' thing, but Ben was willing to face MIB when all Widmore could do was turn and hide.  They are building him up for a fitting end.