Poll

Is MIB dead or Smokey?

MIB was killed in the cave by Jacob
MIB metamorphisized into Smokey

Author Topic: Is MIB dead or Smokey?  (Read 11080 times)

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2010, 07:54:47 PM »

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people...


Remember Sawyer saw young Jacob too. It appears that the glowing apparitions there appear to Candidates. Or so I imagine.

Now that we know the identity of the kid, the fact that Sawyer saw him is one of the real head scratchers for me right now.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2010, 01:00:29 AM »
I think Smokey was held by the light in some sort of jail, when Jacob throw his brother down to the light, maybe his body felt upon the glass "bottle" or whatever kept Smokey there, and freed him. But as MIB was bad cause he killed his "mother", Smokey killed him and took his body for its use, like other dead people on the island.


Okay since this is such a complicated chain of events to happen in a couple of seconds, when do you think they are going to explain this Mouse Trap chain of events?

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2010, 10:49:14 AM »
Why do I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over?  Maybe because I'm typing the same thing over and over!

The purpose of Mother being there (and probably others before her) was to protect the light, making sure no one finds it because most people would not be able to resist the temptation of its power.  MIB showed us from that first scene, by the excitement on his face, that he was hooked at first sight.  Mother said that to go into the light would be worse than death and that if someone were to try to gain too much of the light, it could go out forever, on the island and everywhere.  We saw what happened when MIB's body, voluntarily or not, entered the cave.  If the smoke monster existed before that moment, wouldn't Mother have told Jacob that keeping it on the island was also part of his duties?  She didn't tell him about the smoke because it was 'created' only then after she was dead.  She had never seen the consequences of someone entering the light because she had successfully kept it from happening before.  The creation of smokie itself, ironically, was what Jacob was supposed to be avoiding by keeping people out of the cave in the first place! (Nice job Jake, and on your first day!)  Bottom line, MIB wanted to 'use' the power of the light for his own benefit, exactly what Mother had warned them about.  With Jacob's help (again, thanks bro), MIB got just what he wanted, only it was more than he bargained for.

One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?  I know we have seen things on this show that we were told we wouldn't see (ATL's, time travel); in fact I wouldn't have been surprised if aliens landed also before it was all over, but the 'rules' about who can kill and be killed and who can't are a plotline from THIS SEASON.  And Mother told us THIS WEEK that these guys couldn't kill each other.  It isn't something they said years ago that they've abandoned since.  They just gave us these rules.  To say Jacob killed MIB at the cave would be ignoring two plot points they gave us in this very episode!  Sorry again for the repetition, but Smokey is MIB and MIB is Smokey.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2010, 11:08:08 AM »
Why do I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over?  Maybe because I'm typing the same thing over and over!

The purpose of Mother being there (and probably others before her) was to protect the light, making sure no one finds it because most people would not be able to resist the temptation of its power.  MIB showed us from that first scene, by the excitement on his face, that he was hooked at first sight.  Mother said that to go into the light would be worse than death and that if someone were to try to gain too much of the light, it could go out forever, on the island and everywhere.  We saw what happened when MIB's body, voluntarily or not, entered the cave.  If the smoke monster existed before that moment, wouldn't Mother have told Jacob that keeping it on the island was also part of his duties?  She didn't tell him about the smoke because it was 'created' only then after she was dead.  She had never seen the consequences of someone entering the light because she had successfully kept it from happening before.  The creation of smokie itself, ironically, was what Jacob was supposed to be avoiding by keeping people out of the cave in the first place! (Nice job Jake, and on your first day!)  Bottom line, MIB wanted to 'use' the power of the light for his own benefit, exactly what Mother had warned them about.  With Jacob's help (again, thanks bro), MIB got just what he wanted, only it was more than he bargained for.

One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?  I know we have seen things on this show that we were told we wouldn't see (ATL's, time travel); in fact I wouldn't have been surprised if aliens landed also before it was all over, but the 'rules' about who can kill and be killed and who can't are a plotline from THIS SEASON.  And Mother told us THIS WEEK that these guys couldn't kill each other.  It isn't something they said years ago that they've abandoned since.  They just gave us these rules.  To say Jacob killed MIB at the cave would be ignoring two plot points they gave us in this very episode!  Sorry again for the repetition, but Smokey is MIB and MIB is Smokey.

The bold part made me laugh, the rest made me thankful that there are more people around to type the very same points I feel I keep typing.

Offline lostlady

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2010, 11:20:06 AM »
Why do I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over?  Maybe because I'm typing the same thing over and over!

The purpose of Mother being there (and probably others before her) was to protect the light, making sure no one finds it because most people would not be able to resist the temptation of its power.  MIB showed us from that first scene, by the excitement on his face, that he was hooked at first sight.  Mother said that to go into the light would be worse than death and that if someone were to try to gain too much of the light, it could go out forever, on the island and everywhere.  We saw what happened when MIB's body, voluntarily or not, entered the cave.  If the smoke monster existed before that moment, wouldn't Mother have told Jacob that keeping it on the island was also part of his duties?  She didn't tell him about the smoke because it was 'created' only then after she was dead.  She had never seen the consequences of someone entering the light because she had successfully kept it from happening before.  The creation of smokie itself, ironically, was what Jacob was supposed to be avoiding by keeping people out of the cave in the first place! (Nice job Jake, and on your first day!)  Bottom line, MIB wanted to 'use' the power of the light for his own benefit, exactly what Mother had warned them about.  With Jacob's help (again, thanks bro), MIB got just what he wanted, only it was more than he bargained for.

One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?   I know we have seen things on this show that we were told we wouldn't see (ATL's, time travel); in fact I wouldn't have been surprised if aliens landed also before it was all over, but the 'rules' about who can kill and be killed and who can't are a plotline from THIS SEASON.  And Mother told us THIS WEEK that these guys couldn't kill each other.  It isn't something they said years ago that they've abandoned since.  They just gave us these rules.  To say Jacob killed MIB at the cave would be ignoring two plot points they gave us in this very episode!  Sorry again for the repetition, but Smokey is MIB and MIB is Smokey.

EXACTLY!!!

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2010, 01:00:41 PM »
Im going alllllll the way back to season 3? when they give 'colleen " a viking funeral to possibly show and maybe start a list of whom Smokey can and cant use as a body....
if we are to now believe that smokey can assume the likeness of any DEAD person, then maybe the others knew of this and deliberately made it impossible for smokey to infiltrate/trick/mind F&^% with them by coming back as colleen...

reason for the post is to highlight that TPTB are the ones who allow grey to exist by revealing that smokey was not only MIB.. but also Christian...Yemmi...Locke etc

and if "IT" can play the part of soooo many characters..then whats to say "IT": isnt playing the part of MIB...

Offline BurkRoyer

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2010, 07:48:12 PM »
We know that people still exist on the island, even when there body is lifeless (and buried).  Hurley sees them.  And Locke told Jake that they didn't lose his his father... they only lost his body.  Why is it so hard to accept that a person can still exist without a body.  Most religions believe this.  So why can't smokey be the MIB without his body...

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2010, 11:49:48 PM »
Im going alllllll the way back to season 3? when they give 'colleen " a viking funeral to possibly show and maybe start a list of whom Smokey can and cant use as a body....
if we are to now believe that smokey can assume the likeness of any DEAD person, then maybe the others knew of this and deliberately made it impossible for smokey to infiltrate/trick/mind F&^% with them by coming back as colleen...

reason for the post is to highlight that TPTB are the ones who allow grey to exist by revealing that smokey was not only MIB.. but also Christian...Yemmi...Locke etc

and if "IT" can play the part of soooo many characters..then whats to say "IT": isnt playing the part of MIB...

Because they came out and said that IT is MiB. And they have told us in the Ep that Jacob can't Kill MiB. I fully believe your point about Colleen, but MiB IS Smokey. No two ways about it. This is not just another person he is impersonating. He is the one who used to have a body, Used to have a crazy Mother. MiB was saying this about himself, not John Locke.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2010, 01:09:44 AM »
We know that people still exist on the island, even when there body is lifeless (and buried).  Hurley sees them.  And Locke told Jake that they didn't lose his his father... they only lost his body.  Why is it so hard to accept that a person can still exist without a body.  Most religions believe this.  So why can't smokey be the MIB without his body...

Dude, you just said in 3 lines what I havn't been able to express in at least a dozen posts. You always have a way of knocking it out of the park. Well said.

Offline Holland34

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2010, 04:53:35 AM »
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and their explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 07:18:43 PM by Holland34 »

Offline opgelost

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2010, 07:52:02 AM »
I post this again, because it has so much of Lost in it.
The picture of Anubis feeding Smoky as an offer, Smoky taking the form of other people and the hurleybird,
a part of the dead person stays with the body, that's why Smoky has the memories of Christian and Locke,
Smoky never be named by his mother or Jacob, Smoky as the shadow.

http://www.philae.nu/akhet/KaBa.html

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2010, 01:21:35 PM »
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2010, 05:48:02 PM »
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.

I finally got around to listening to the last official Lost podcast with Darlton, and they did kind of address this issue. Unfortunately for me and my theory/arguement, in the podcast, they seemed to suggest that Jacob didn't directly kill MIB. It was more Jacob just throwing him in the water and whatever happened in the cave is seperate. So basically, they indicated that it was highly likely that MIB did die in the cave. Of course they don't come out and say it directly, but after listening to them...I'm not as convinced as I was before.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2010, 07:01:15 PM »
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.

I finally got around to listening to the last official Lost podcast with Darlton, and they did kind of address this issue. Unfortunately for me and my theory/arguement, in the podcast, they seemed to suggest that Jacob didn't directly kill MIB. It was more Jacob just throwing him in the water and whatever happened in the cave is seperate. So basically, they indicated that it was highly likely that MIB did die in the cave. Of course they don't come out and say it directly, but after listening to them...I'm not as convinced as I was before.

I guess I need to listen to this again, because I got the opposite out of it. I feel like it would go directly against most of the things they have stated in the past about the rules and death. In Meet Kevin Johnson, Michaels wouldn't have killed himself, the bullet would have. Stuff like that. The bomb in the sub would have gone off because MiB didn't kill them, the bomb did. Stuff like that. I don't know. I am sticking to MiB = Smokey.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2010, 07:35:51 PM »
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.

I finally got around to listening to the last official Lost podcast with Darlton, and they did kind of address this issue. Unfortunately for me and my theory/arguement, in the podcast, they seemed to suggest that Jacob didn't directly kill MIB. It was more Jacob just throwing him in the water and whatever happened in the cave is seperate. So basically, they indicated that it was highly likely that MIB did die in the cave. Of course they don't come out and say it directly, but after listening to them...I'm not as convinced as I was before.

I guess I need to listen to this again, because I got the opposite out of it. I feel like it would go directly against most of the things they have stated in the past about the rules and death. In Meet Kevin Johnson, Michaels wouldn't have killed himself, the bullet would have. Stuff like that. The bomb in the sub would have gone off because MiB didn't kill them, the bomb did. Stuff like that. I don't know. I am sticking to MiB = Smokey.

I was expecting one answer in the podcast, but they left me scratching my head. I'm still leaning more towards MIB = Smokey also, but now I'm not as sure as I was before. Perhaps its one of those cases where 2 things are equally true...like MIB died in the cave, but was reborn as Smokey. Mother did mention rebirth.