Is MIB dead or Smokey?

[CaseyMac]

im defending MIB never being this violent as a HUMAN form... so why start the second he is thrown down a waterfall into the light???

Like when he stabbed Mother in the back? *cough*
Then technically, we didn't see him be violent after that, even as Smokey. I mean a butterfly doesn't violently shed it's cocoon, to continue the metaphor. But after hundreds, then thousands of years, you will start to do anything to get off the Island. And I think thats the main thing to take away from that episode as we head into the finale. MIB will do anything, no matter the consequences, to get off the Island.

[ozman776]

Yes ive acknoledged TPTB saying MIB=SMOKEY... as the ace in the hand comment referred.... luckily ive had a few 2 pair hands that have trumped aces so i can carry on and not fold....

[ozman776]

goood point...he stabbed his mother in the back.... as we can assume most murders like this are because they cant face the person they love so they attack from behind as to not be swayed from the outcome desired....

what would have been your reaction by the way if your ticket off the rock was SLAUGHTERED and burned, your head was smashed against a rock.... no one is to know how many cracks of the head have ended in death when someone simply wanted to knock someone out... im assuming his rage and attack on her was based upon his attempted murder by psycho mommie...

and waking up to find his lifes work BURIED..and all alone to know he's never leaving because someone who KILLED his mother says so...

[I_Am_Jacob]

im more or less leaving it as this thread to set up team MIB camp.... cause all the other ones are fairly the same issue...

the question above so brilliantly stated is

MIB was killed in the cave by Jacob    = DEAD.. no breaths, no eating, no drinking, no thoughts, no desires....
MIB metamorphisized into Smokey = coocooned into a new life form, and now has the powers to beat up anyone he likes...

I'm going to make a little edit here to make you right....

MiB was Thrown into the cave by Jacob, But because Jacob Can't kill his brother because it is against the rules MiB now = Smoke Monster.

MiB IS the Smoke Monster. Anything posted about this exact topic should follow this line of thought otherwise I will deem it WRONG. 

If you want an MiB camp thats fine, but know thatby supporting MiB you are supporting every bit of him. The Man he was before all the good was magnetically ripped from him, and after when all that is left is a shapeshifting column of black smoke.

[ozman776]

Oh thats fine...look back a few episodes when i started are you a team Locke/team jack fan....

ive been a locke supporter from day one... so i know im in a minority...

but i know that locke wants to STAY on the island, so the confusion of this smoke thing wanting off makes it hard to sit thru some epsiodes... im all for smokey locke kicking some tail... but i also am aware its not REALLY locke doing it... just a really goood chameleon ation...

[I_Am_Jacob]

Oh thats fine...look back a few episodes when i started are you a team Locke/team jack fan....

ive been a locke supporter from day one... so i know im in a minority...

but i know that locke wants to STAY on the island, so the confusion of this smoke thing wanting off makes it hard to sit thru some epsiodes... im all for smokey locke kicking some tail... but i also am aware its not REALLY locke doing it... just a really goood chameleon ation...

Yeah Locke really doesn't want to stay anywhere these days except in his coffin. Locke is still dead. MiB is impersonating Locke like he has done with multiple people, but the first form he took was the one most familiar to him and that was his own.

[ozman776]

I gotta say im sure smokey was someone before MIB... as jacob being the only other person on the island he's used MIB's face as a way to communicate with him, and to voice his dead brothers concern of leaving... we cant truely believe that momma (who came to the island by accident) was the First protector of the light... someone had to be there to show her the ropes and the rules... so if she wasnt first and smokey im assuming is the opposite of light must have have a few dead bodies to use...

[I_Am_Jacob]

I gotta say im sure smokey was someone before MIB... as jacob being the only other person on the island he's used MIB's face as a way to communicate with him, and to voice his dead brothers concern of leaving... we cant truely believe that momma (who came to the island by accident) was the First protector of the light... someone had to be there to show her the ropes and the rules... so if she wasnt first and smokey im assuming is the opposite of light must have have a few dead bodies to use...

Except Smokey didn't exist until Jacob threw MiB into the Light and now he has two things to protect against. That is his conundrum. He has two problems, both of which can be solved by the opposite means.

1: Keep people away from the Light. People will still land there by accident (Henry Gale, Claudia, etc.) but rarely will there be a group capable of threatening the light.

2: Keep your brother (MiB) on the island because all the good was sucked out of him and now all that is left is pure evil. Not a problem until you realize that he will always be searching for a way to kill you. With that known you need to find yourself a replacement before he DOES kill you and has nothing left to keep him on the island. So you figure you will find a bunch aof candidates and see if any of them will take up your stead when you are killed, in the process giving MiB the loophole he was so searching for.

It's a daunting task. Goes into the whole balance thing to. To objectives whose means wirk directly against one another.

[CaseyMac]

goood point...he stabbed his mother in the back.... as we can assume most murders like this are because they cant face the person they love so they attack from behind as to not be swayed from the outcome desired....

what would have been your reaction by the way if your ticket off the rock was SLAUGHTERED and burned, your head was smashed against a rock.... no one is to know how many cracks of the head have ended in death when someone simply wanted to knock someone out... im assuming his rage and attack on her was based upon his attempted murder by psycho mommie...

and waking up to find his lifes work BURIED..and all alone to know he's never leaving because someone who KILLED his mother says so...

I agree with you there. I had considerably more sympathy for MIB after that part. And also, it seems that Mother may have even been baiting MIB to kill her in the first place, or at least saw it coming. "Go get firewood, Jacob."

But then we get into a more philisophical question of, "When is murder justified?" and well, we could debate that forever.

[goober]

With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud 

[CaseyMac]

With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud 

But Jacob couldn't see Claudia. So it's not like the times we've seen Smokey manifest as a dead person.

[goober]

With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud 

But Jacob couldn't see Claudia. So it's not like the times we've seen Smokey manifest as a dead person.

Huh? Who saw Christian besides Jack? Locke saw him with Claire and again with the Donkey wheel, but not with anyone else. Who saw Yemi besides Eko? Who saw Dave besides Hurley?... I think that smokey can appear w/o someone else seeing him... other than the target that is. Illana asked Ben who he was talking to when smokey appeared to him while he was digging his grave.

[CaseyMac]

With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud 

But Jacob couldn't see Claudia. So it's not like the times we've seen Smokey manifest as a dead person.

Huh? Who saw Christian besides Jack? Locke saw him with Claire and again with the Donkey wheel, but not with anyone else. Who saw Yemi besides Eko? Who saw Dave besides Hurley?... I think that smokey can appear w/o someone else seeing him... other than the target that is. Illana asked Ben who he was talking to when smokey appeared to him while he was digging his grave.

Well, Young MIB could see Claudia because he is "special". Kind of in a way that I'd assume Hurley is "special" in being able to see dead people. As far as Smokey appearing other times...Jack can't see dead people, Eko can't see dead people, and everybody who is seeing UnLocke (except Hurley) can't see dead people.

Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think Illana asked Ben who he was talking to. She just looked over at him. But her not seeing UnLocke at the time can be explained quite simply in that he was behind some bushes.

Finally, I'm not 100% sure Dave was MIB. In fact, my guess is that he wasn't, since we've seen a bunch of times where Hurley was the only one who could see someone.

[I_Am_Jacob]

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people...

Remember Sawyer saw young Jacob too. It appears that the glowing apparitions there appear to Candidates. Or so I imagine.

[MetalAir1]

I think Smokey was held by the light in some sort of jail, when Jacob throw his brother down to the light, maybe his body felt upon the glass "bottle" or whatever kept Smokey there, and freed him. But as MIB was bad cause he killed his "mother", Smokey killed him and took his body for its use, like other dead people on the island.