Poll

Is MIB dead or Smokey?

MIB was killed in the cave by Jacob
MIB metamorphisized into Smokey

Author Topic: Is MIB dead or Smokey?  (Read 8658 times)

Offline jinfan

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 01:07:32 PM »
 
 
* smokey/alex telling ben under temple he killed her (smokey just using another dead body)
 I agree with MIB=dead, however I have always thought Flock did NOT know this happened, so it could not have been smokie as Alex(my 2 cents)

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 01:11:19 PM »
to qoute jacob prior to him cracking mibs head on a rock and setting him down the rapids into the hole...

Jacob
"You want to find the light"
"you want to LEAVE this place BROTHER"
"Then GO"
tosses him down on a rock and MIB floats in unconsious (possibly dead)

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 01:14:50 PM »
on a side note.... i also believe we are shown a snippet of MIB's life to satisfy who is adam and eve...for those who feel we arent shown all this info about MIB just to have him die at the end of the epsiode.....

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2010, 02:08:58 PM »
my point is.... i could jump easily on the team MIB/SMOKEY bandwagon if TPTB had just shown him going in on his own curiosity .... but to be unconscious and tossed in as a punishment... how can that instantly create a smoke monster that never existed before hand????

Whats really funny is, if MIB walked in on his own, I would have an easier time believing he was dead.

Thats because my main sticking point, and the thing that simply is the firewall for me believing MIB died is this. Jacob cannot kill MIB and MIB cannot kill Jacob. We've already seen the huge Rube Goldberg-esque plan that MIB had to do to kill Jacob, so it's impossible for me to accept that Jacob was able to kill MIB. Now, I've heard it argued that Jacob didn't directly kill him, it was the creek that pushed him in the cave. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me. It's like that Richard/Jack scene back at the Black Rock, it wouldn't have been them killing themselves, it's the dynomite. Or the classic NRA joke, guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

My point is, thats just splitting hairs. Jacob tossed MIB in the cave, so MIB couldn't have been killed there.

Now, as for Jacob's reactions after that, well, what do you expect. He sees his brother's body and assumes, like some of you, that he is dead. So he gives him a burial. What Jacob doesn't know at that point, but obviously figures out later, is that MIB morphed into Smokey, cast off his body like a cocoon, and that is why MIB needed a loophole in order to kill Jacob.

So, to use a Star Wars analogy (surprise), MIB turning into Smokey, is alot like Anakin turning into Darth Vader. Instead of being more machine than man (Vader), he is more Smoke than man now. He didn't die, he just changed.

Offline DirtyMaggieMae

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2010, 02:19:07 PM »
I was sure that the Brother was dead and gone, and the Smoke is the evil of the world after I watched the episode.  AND THEN I come on here and become all persuaded.  It's just a few simple things.

1. Momma Bear made it so that they can't kill each other.
2. Fate worse than death.  Worse than, not a fate OF death.
3. Smoke/MIB disgruntled anger with Jacob.  He stole my humanity, betrayed me, trapped me.

Someone made a good point early on...it was Jacob's intention to have his brother go into the Light.  If Jacob was...I dunno, standing by the stream washing that hard man body of his off and saw his Brother floating towards the Light he would be innocent of brother's fate.  But forcefully thrusting him into the light, TELLING him to leave pretty much sums it up.

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2010, 03:55:29 PM »
its all cool... you hold the ACE which is:-
TPTB said smokey is MIB.... kinda like they told us no time travelling
you also hold the qoute of " crazy momma said we cant hurt/kill each other...

and i agree it wasnt jacobs INTENTION to kill him.... i assume his words said prior to pushing IB down the hole
Jacob
"You want to find the light"
"you want to LEAVE this place BROTHER"
"Then GO"

i am to assume he felt MIB would be transported OFF the island , much like we know anyone who turns the donkey wheel can NEVER return... oh thats right, ben and dead locke returned.... funny how the producers say stuff and contradict themselves....

MIB up till the day he went into the hole is DEAD...
fake MIB
fake locke
Fake Yemmi
Fake Christian
Fake alex
Fake horsie

is all weve seen since....

smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...

Offline Barringer

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2010, 04:00:39 PM »
How is Darlton telling us that Jacob's brother is the smoke monster the night after the episode airs at all comparable to them claiming there wouldn't be time travel back during season 1 or 2, and then reneging on that three years later, presumably after they changed their minds?

Are you saying they changed their minds after they wrote and aired the episode? Or are just lying to the audience?

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2010, 04:09:33 PM »
i just read my first apparent pod cast... but during the "is christian alive or dead " debates way back when i remember someone saying that TPTB settled the issue once and for all by standing thier ground that he was absolutely dead.... didnt do much for most who then screamed LIE when he popped up off island, and has been seen in the cabin and at dharmaville... as a ghost ..it seemed or now we find out an apparition of smokey.... regardless, they want to put rumors or wrond delusions to bed and yet reshow scenes such as jacob saying you want to LEAVE... then GO... the scene is whats rattled the sabres... like i said

it would have made ABSOLUTE sense that MIB is SMOKEY if he disobeyed his mum and went into the light himself, and as a consequence, was jeckyl and hyded into smokey.... NOT by his brother knocking him out and pushing him in against his WILL... only to find out it doesnt transport you away...it actually transforms you into a killing machine/security device...

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2010, 04:11:28 PM »
smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...

I'm sorry, you know that how? Are you "special" in that you just know things?

Now I think it might be possible for Mother to have been able to turn into a smoke monster considering the devastation that she did to the well and the village looked alot like what Locke did to the Temple. But that would just mean she was a different smoke monster. Do I have any evidence to back that up? None at all. It's purely a hyothesis.

But Barringer brings up a really good point. There is a difference between changing your mind as a writer years later and saying something not only immediately after an episode, but several times during the episode itself. Hell, MIB's last words in the episode were something like "You can't kill me. Mother made it that way." It's hard to just turn a blind eye to that.

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2010, 04:16:41 PM »
Im sorry you know smokey didnt exist before the person went into the light...wow you know everything huh????

who killed all MIBs family/friends in less than 24 hours and covered up a 1000 +sq foot hole??? momma bear who have we seen do this before??? "
SMOKEY!!!!!!!!!!!
im assuming as you are...
you seem to know so much... please inform me how a smokey creature with HOLES/tunnels everywhere just happened to form in 5 seconds of air time after MIb entered the hole....

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2010, 04:17:41 PM »
it would have made ABSOLUTE sense that MIB is SMOKEY if he disobeyed his mum and went into the light himself, and as a consequence, was jeckyl and hyded into smokey.... NOT by his brother knocking him out and pushing him in against his WILL... only to find out it doesnt transport you away...it actually transforms you into a killing machine/security device...

I take it the exact opposite. I think it would be easier to believe MIB is dead if he just walked in there because Jacob didn't kill him then. I don't think the INTENTION of going in the cave has any bearing on anything at all. It certainly was never mentioned by anyone.

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2010, 04:18:02 PM »
oh so we now have diffenrent "levels" of smokey monsters... how convenient..

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2010, 04:20:39 PM »
either way MIB is dead.... the only debate should be...is his SOUL still alive...cause that body in the caves sure looked like him when jacob had his mock funeral.... so how can a soul/person still be alive once it leaves the body??? how can it still think/act on its own in a new body/apparation?

MIB is smokeys costume...nothing more... to say MIB as weve come to know him this epsidoe is exactly as he would be if still alive is whats wrong.... MIB is dead and shown dead as evidenced in the adam and eve scene...

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2010, 04:20:52 PM »
smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...

I'm sorry, you know that how? Are you "special" in that you just know things?

Now I think it might be possible for Mother to have been able to turn into a smoke monster considering the devastation that she did to the well and the village looked alot like what Locke did to the Temple. But that would just mean she was a different smoke monster. Do I have any evidence to back that up? None at all. It's purely a hyothesis.

But Barringer brings up a really good point. There is a difference between changing your mind as a writer years later and saying something not only immediately after an episode, but several times during the episode itself. Hell, MIB's last words in the episode were something like "You can't kill me. Mother made it that way." It's hard to just turn a blind eye to that.

Yeah I love it when Blind eyes are so obviously turned to things. I've done it before, we all have, but this evidence is glaring now. Oz I appreciate your fervor, but you are fighting a losing battle. For TPTB to coyley (sp) say there won't be any time travel even though they knew there probably would, is one thing. This is the end game. This is not going to be the time where they show one thing so clearly, regardless of the fact that a small subset of people may not grasp it, and then immediately reinforce it through interview, and have it all be misdirection. Not the time for that anymore. If you want to keep fighting the fight I can't stop you, but it's kind of like trying to chop down the biggest tree in the forest with... a herring.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2010, 04:24:06 PM »
its all cool... you hold the ACE which is:-
TPTB said smokey is MIB.... kinda like they told us no time travelling
you also hold the qoute of " crazy momma said we cant hurt/kill each other...

and i agree it wasnt jacobs INTENTION to kill him.... i assume his words said prior to pushing IB down the hole
Jacob
"You want to find the light"
"you want to LEAVE this place BROTHER"
"Then GO"

i am to assume he felt MIB would be transported OFF the island , much like we know anyone who turns the donkey wheel can NEVER return... oh thats right, ben and dead locke returned.... funny how the producers say stuff and contradict themselves....

MIB up till the day he went into the hole is DEAD...
fake MIB
fake locke
Fake Yemmi
Fake Christian
Fake alex
Fake horsie

is all weve seen since....

smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...

So, some of us have assumed that because we were told MIB and Jacob couldn't kill each other, that MIB didn't die.  Maybe we're fools to believe what we're told because of the contradictions you pointed out.  But you're making an assumption also to support what you got from the episode, only your assumption isn't even based on anything we've been told or shown.  Nowhere was it ever said that the smoke was ALWAYS with the light.  The only sign that it MAY have been there before would be the devastation at MIB's camp, the filled-in well and fallen tree, etc.  But again, there was no indication that it was Smokie.  And it sure seemed to me that after 30+ years on the island, Jacob looked pretty surprised to see it in action.  I think it was his first appearance.  The tunnels and all might have come later or they might be natural formations (running water tends to do that), but in that scene, it flew out of the cave into the trees, that's it.  Put me on the side of MIB=Smokie, TPTB said last week (in a no-longer spoiling spoiler) that this episode would show us how the smoke monster was 'created'.  I find it hard to believe they would outright lie at this point in the story.