Poll

Is MIB dead or Smokey?

MIB was killed in the cave by Jacob
MIB metamorphisized into Smokey

Author Topic: Is MIB dead or Smokey?  (Read 8672 times)

Offline CaseyMac

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Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« on: May 13, 2010, 12:03:21 AM »
There seems to be a bit of debate on this idea, so I thought it would be cool to put it to a poll, and I guess collect the debate into one place.

1 school of thought seems to be that since we saw MIB's body, that means he is dead. The Smoke Monster is not MIB, but only uses his form occasionally. Plain and simple.

The other school of thought is that since Jacob could not kill MIB, then there is no way for MIB to die at that moment, so if he didn't die, then he must of changed into, or become part of Smokey.

Personally, I'm in the metamorphasis camp. As a bit of foreshadowing evidence, I'd like to remind people of this thread that was started back in Ab Aeterno titled Butterfly

Thank you for voting, and putting in your 2 cents.

Offline LouE68

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2010, 12:08:55 AM »
What if I think Jacob killed his brother back at the cave, then what was left of his brother morphed into Smokey...he has all of Jacobs brothers mind and thought, but not his soul...not his essence...Just like he had Lockes last thoughts, he has the idea Jacobs Bro had, get off the island...but he has no reason why he wants off...just, thats the last thought he had...so it's kind of both...and more...

Offline jinfan

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 12:16:07 AM »
I am under this impression because I think fake mom..well, lied
about being their mother
aboutletting him leave(to Jacob about MIB)
about nothing across the sea,etc.
mingled with other unwordable by me type thoughts
(not SURE MIB was dead and not just knocked out by Jacob)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 12:20:48 AM by jinfan »

Offline Barringer

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 12:22:53 AM »
I think it's pretty clear the writers intended for Jacob's brother to be the smoke monster. The episode is billed as explaining "Locke's motivations." If the smoke monster is merely taking the form of Jacob's brother and the form of Locke, then the episode failed in this, because the smoke monster didn't appear until the final five minutes of the episode, and there is no explanation about it or its motivations. We learn a lot about Jacob's brother and his motivations, though; if he merely died and his form was adopted by the smoke monster, it seems a waste to delve into his character. That's just from the storytelling standpoint.

Within the actual story itself, we're told that the brothers cannot hurt each other, hence the necessity of the loophole. The smoke monster tells Richard that Jacob took "[his] body, [his] humanity." Jacob's brother wants to go home; the smoke monster tells Ben it wants what John Locke didn't: to go home.

And in an interview I read with Lindelof and Cuse today, Cuse says:

"We wanted to explain why the Man in Black had behaved the way that he does, and to show that like a lot of other characters on the show, he's the victim of very bad parenting. To reduce him to just a supernatural force, as opposed to a person, was not our intent. "Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are."

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/exclusive-interview-lost-producers-damon-lindelof-and-carlton-cuse-talk-across-the-sea

It just doesn't seem to make much sense to me to try to separate the smoke monster and Jacob's brother into separate entities. It's needlessly complex, and really makes the episode worse, because the episode is about Jacob and his brother; the smoke monster doesn't figure into it as a separate entity, and if it were a separate entity, the episode offers zero insight into its motivations or purpose. Something bad happened to Jacob's brother when he was thrown into the light by Jacob, and now he's the smoke monster.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 01:52:15 AM »
Yeah, I agree Barringer. Why would they spend all that time giving us the MIB backstory and then just kill him at the end? It's like here, all this stuff we spent the whole episode showing you...now toss it out the window. That just is hard for me to swallow.

Offline Barringer

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2010, 02:26:55 AM »
To be honest, I think this whole confusion arose out of poor (or at least unclear) writing. The writers wanted to tie Jacob's brother and mother with the two skeletons found in the caves, so they had to have the brother's body reappear after Jacob tossed him into the cave in order for it to turn into a skeleton.

Would we be having these "The man in black isn't the smoke monster, the smoke monster is just taking his form" theories if his body never reappeared, and instead Jacob just threw him into the cave, and the smoke monster came out? Doubtful.

Offline lostjava

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 08:34:29 AM »
Actually I think the writers were clever because they kept it ambiguous so we wouldn't know (hopefully we will).

I think the MIB was dead.  His body going into the cave released smokey.  When smokey came flying out, the body was push out of the cave too.  Just my thinking at this time.  Of course, that's subject to change as I continue to contemplate the episode.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2010, 10:26:48 AM »
Yeah, I agree Barringer. Why would they spend all that time giving us the MIB backstory and then just kill him at the end? It's like here, all this stuff we spent the whole episode showing you...now toss it out the window. That just is hard for me to swallow.

What if it was just to reveal Jacobs backstory,

We did see more of Jacob than MIB in this episode.


Offline lostlady

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2010, 10:51:12 AM »
The writers have said (yesterday)that MIB = Smokey so I am going with this theory.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2010, 11:07:27 AM »
The writers have said (yesterday)that MIB = Smokey so I am going with this theory.

This

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2010, 12:34:40 PM »
MIB Lives!  Entering the light causes a fate 'worse than death'.

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2010, 12:48:04 PM »
THANK YOU for making this ...ive noticed a few threads now are debating this so one place should help....
im not going to attach others qoutes to challenge so heres my take on MIB being DEAD....

* body on branch lifeless found by jacob
* ceremonial burial in caves with his fake mom and stones
* existence of smokey Prior to MIB floating into the cave of light
* some say light was extenguished after mib entered and smokey left ( not as far as i can see from this screen cap)
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1549-566.html  click it to enlarge
* ben using smokey to attack merc's under jacobs orders (ben was team jacob)
* smokey/alex telling ben under temple he killed her (smokey just using another dead body)
 more to come as i wrack my brain to gather more from other episodes... but i am under the impression this episode was to show how jacob was the chosen one and how alone against a creature he released he has struggled to now find his replacement....
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 12:50:00 PM by ozman776 »

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2010, 12:54:00 PM »

* existence of smokey Prior to MIB floating into the cave of light

* ben using smokey to attack merc's under jacobs orders (ben was team jacob)

The first one just seems to be making things up

As for the second point there, it has been argued, by me, that Ben was under the impression that MiB was using the cabin and it can be argued that Ben only THOUGHT he was team Jacob.

Offline beanblog

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 01:04:03 PM »
Yeah - it seems to me that all major signs point to MIB undergoing a transformation into smokie... which is apparently a fate worse than death.  Of course, if I had the choice between dying and turning in to giant nano-swarm of electromagnetic interference that can read minds, fly, and chose my own appearance/form, I think I'd go with option 2 :)

Offline ozman776

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Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 01:06:31 PM »
not made up.... what is a fate worse than death that jacob and fake mom speak of.... somewhere we are not shown that jacob is told of a smoke monster... some claim that fake mom even used smokey to wipe out a village like how ben used it on the mercs... some say smokey has been heard prior to mib having his head smashed in by fake mom in the donkey wheel cavern...
BUT
to start a new question, are we now to believe smokey instantly came into existence the second MIB floated into his cave "UNWILLINGLY"... unconscious and pushed on his way by jacob??? thats like saying i wonder if the water in the swimming pool is cold by shoving your mate in first to see if they scream "its so cold"... i know a dumb example...

my point is.... i could jump easily on the team MIB/SMOKEY bandwagon if TPTB had just shown him going in on his own curiosity .... but to be unconscious and tossed in as a punishment... how can that instantly create a smoke monster that never existed before hand????