Author Topic: Need some timeline help  (Read 2564 times)

Offline zeekloveslost

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Need some timeline help
« on: May 12, 2010, 02:52:59 PM »
I'm having a hard time piecing together when the conversation between Jacob and his brother occurred on the beach. Was is before the brother was thrown into the light cave or after?  Did the conversation about the brother wanting to kill Jacob happen before the brother was killed himself?  Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Offline relient k

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2010, 02:54:34 PM »
By conversation you mean the one on the beach near the statue from the season 5 finale? If so, I believe that was after.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2010, 02:57:28 PM »
You said "any" help so I assume that means me too. I think the talk came during the 1860's right before the Black Rock showed up. There are discrepancies in the weather, but I know the Island has really wacky weather.

Offline zeekloveslost

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 03:50:21 PM »
You said "any" help so I assume that means me too. I think the talk came during the 1860's right before the Black Rock showed up. There are discrepancies in the weather, but I know the Island has really wacky weather.

Good point about the ship. Duh!  OK. So in this scene the man that Jacob is talking to is actually the smoke in the form of Jacob's dead brother.  Right?

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2010, 03:52:45 PM »
You said "any" help so I assume that means me too. I think the talk came during the 1860's right before the Black Rock showed up. There are discrepancies in the weather, but I know the Island has really wacky weather.

Good point about the ship. Duh!  OK. So in this scene the man that Jacob is talking to is actually the smoke in the form of Jacob's dead brother.  Right?

Yes, I think so, because otherwise, they would have been with Mother, because that's where they were they always were.

You said "any" help so I assume that means me too. I think the talk came during the 1860's right before the Black Rock showed up. There are discrepancies in the weather, but I know the Island has really wacky weather.

Weather issues??

Offline lostlady

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2010, 03:53:27 PM »
You said "any" help so I assume that means me too. I think the talk came during the 1860's right before the Black Rock showed up. There are discrepancies in the weather, but I know the Island has really wacky weather.

Good point about the ship. Duh!  OK. So in this scene the man that Jacob is talking to is actually the smoke in the form of Jacob's dead brother.  Right?

Yup! It was Smokey in Jacob's brother's form the whole time we saw him on the beach with Jacob and in all of Ab Aeterno. Jacob's brother died and smokey took his body over.

Offline zeekloveslost

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2010, 03:55:52 PM »
OK, so now that we have established this, can anyone explain why during that conversation the smoke takes the position "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."  This is what Mother tells the two boys, so you'd think that this would be Jacob's position.  But instead Jacob doesn't believe this stance.  What's up with that!?

Offline lostlady

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 03:57:32 PM »
OK, so now that we have established this, can anyone explain why during that conversation the smoke takes the position "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."  This is what Mother tells the two boys, so you'd think that this would be Jacob's position.  But instead Jacob doesn't believe this stance.  What's up with that!?

That is what I am most confused about. This should be a thread on it's own because I'd really like some insight.

Offline cookieshoes

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 04:01:53 PM »
OK, so now that we have established this, can anyone explain why during that conversation the smoke takes the position "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."  This is what Mother tells the two boys, so you'd think that this would be Jacob's position.  But instead Jacob doesn't believe this stance.  What's up with that!?

My theory is that the Mother was both the protector of the island and the smokey. She was the light and the dark in one. The island was "in harmony" while she was around.  This would explain why she was able to kill all of the people at the well, since she did it as smokey.

So, when she died, perhaps the traits/responsibilities split between Jacob and his brother. Jacob was the light, his brother the dark.  So, Jacob took certain aspects of his mother, and MiB took the other, which included the pessimistic view of men.

Offline Madam P

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 04:08:33 PM »
I'm not entirely convinced that we've established it as after MIB was killed.  To me, it could've been one of the times in between -- while MIB was living with The Others and Jacob was still living with Mom.  Apparently Jacob and MIB would visit each other without Mom (remember MIB saying "Does she know you visit me?" and the whole thing about "Well, I'm sorry I asked about her.")   I think it's possible this scene was one of those visits.

Also, about whether or not that was the Black Rock off-shore during that conversation -- something about that never seemed quite right to me.  Aside from it going from a beautifully sunny morning to a dark and stormy night all in the space of time when the ship was less than a half-mile offshore (it appeared to me), just the pure distance is a problem.  In "Ab Aeterno" the slaves were looking out the window and seemed shocked and surprised that they see land, with "el diablo" on the beach.  Why in the heck wouldn't they have seen that land during the day, while Jacob and MIB were having their conversation?  The ship was certainly close enough to see land.  It just made me think that the ship that was offshore during Jacob's/MIB's conversation at the end of Season 5 was not in fact the Black Rock.

Offline lostandfree

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 04:11:44 PM »
OK, so now that we have established this, can anyone explain why during that conversation the smoke takes the position "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."  This is what Mother tells the two boys, so you'd think that this would be Jacob's position.  But instead Jacob doesn't believe this stance.  What's up with that!?

My theory is that the Mother was both the protector of the island and the smokey. She was the light and the dark in one. The island was "in harmony" while she was around.  This would explain why she was able to kill all of the people at the well, since she did it as smokey.

So, when she died, perhaps the traits/responsibilities split between Jacob and his brother. Jacob was the light, his brother the dark.  So, Jacob took certain aspects of his mother, and MiB took the other, which included the pessimistic view of men.


This is kind of what I was thinking.

Offline DirtyMaggieMae

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 04:17:36 PM »
OK, so now that we have established this, can anyone explain why during that conversation the smoke takes the position "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."  This is what Mother tells the two boys, so you'd think that this would be Jacob's position.  But instead Jacob doesn't believe this stance.  What's up with that!?

My theory is that the Mother was both the protector of the island and the smokey. She was the light and the dark in one. The island was "in harmony" while she was around.  This would explain why she was able to kill all of the people at the well, since she did it as smokey.

So, when she died, perhaps the traits/responsibilities split between Jacob and his brother. Jacob was the light, his brother the dark.  So, Jacob took certain aspects of his mother, and MiB took the other, which included the pessimistic view of men.


This is kind of what I was thinking.

I like that idea! 
It also seems to me that Jacob has had quite a bit of interaction with the following humans on the island.  It's almost like he regretted what happened with his brother and took up where he left off, becoming a part of society.  They came to regard him as a leader.  He had more time than his brother did to be with people.  MIB only had 30 years.  Perhaps he started to see the better side of humanity.  Like MIB told him, "one day you can have your own game and make the rules."  Jacob took that up in a way.  He's got to find a replacement for himself- one that can live up to the task.  If he felt that all humanity is good for is fighting and corrupting he wouldn't bother. 

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 04:40:03 PM »
I'm not entirely convinced that we've established it as after MIB was killed.  To me, it could've been one of the times in between -- while MIB was living with The Others and Jacob was still living with Mom.  Apparently Jacob and MIB would visit each other without Mom (remember MIB saying "Does she know you visit me?" and the whole thing about "Well, I'm sorry I asked about her.")   I think it's possible this scene was one of those visits.

Also, about whether or not that was the Black Rock off-shore during that conversation -- something about that never seemed quite right to me.  Aside from it going from a beautifully sunny morning to a dark and stormy night all in the space of time when the ship was less than a half-mile offshore (it appeared to me), just the pure distance is a problem.  In "Ab Aeterno" the slaves were looking out the window and seemed shocked and surprised that they see land, with "el diablo" on the beach.  Why in the heck wouldn't they have seen that land during the day, while Jacob and MIB were having their conversation?  The ship was certainly close enough to see land.  It just made me think that the ship that was offshore during Jacob's/MIB's conversation at the end of Season 5 was not in fact the Black Rock.

Okay, so these are the weather issues that IAJ refered to. Well, I'm kind of surprised that I need to point this out, but actually getting to the island is harder than just getting there. There have been several instances where we have seen this. Desmond's boat before he crashed into the island, Frank's chopper arriving at and leaving the island, remember when Juliette went to the island and when she woke up Ethan told her that the ride gets kind of intense?? Apparently crossing the line that seperates the island time and space from the rest of the world causes some problems. Maybe when you are outside of the bubble, the island is invisible, the freighter is a good example, but as you cross the line, everything goes down. That would explain why Richard and the rest of the slaves were so surprised to see the island.

Offline Grinch531

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 05:28:04 PM »
OK, so now that we have established this, can anyone explain why during that conversation the smoke takes the position "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."  This is what Mother tells the two boys, so you'd think that this would be Jacob's position.  But instead Jacob doesn't believe this stance.  What's up with that!?

I think that the person Smokey is taking the form of, he gets a little part of their mind. Like near the beginning of this season, FLocke saw the little boy Jacob, he screamed "don't tell me what I can't do". This is something that Locke says all the time, and Smokey picked that up.

Offline char1

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Re: Need some timeline help
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2010, 10:41:08 PM »
i think that smokey is the brother combined with the power of the island.  why else would he most often be seen as the MIB, and why else would Jacob speak to him as if he is his brother? I'm missing where some people are thinking the smoke monster just came to be and is not related to MIB going into the light.