Author Topic: Anyone else notice  (Read 3408 times)

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 07:42:09 AM »
I am not sure if the speaking/not speaking is relevant.  I think more to the point, that she could not kill herself, so I think she manipulated everything so that MIB would eventually off her just like Jacob manipulated Ben to a murderous frame of mind and stood there and let him stab him.  Talking or not talking did not matter in that scene and I do not think it mattered when MIB killed his mother.  Because at that point he is not Smokey yet anyway. 

I think you mean MiB manipulated Ben into a murderous state of mind

MiB did, but so did Jacob. When Ben was pouring his heart out about what he'd done for the island, and then Jacob responded with "What about you?"

That'd get me stabby.

But take away everything that Locke said to him, and the simple line of "What about you??" would not drive him that crazy.

We have seen Jacob the ass kicker 3 times this season. He could have defended himself against Ben and his knife with ease. He knew Ben was all emotional and in a stabby mood and said nothing to him that would cause him to act differantly. In essance he commited suicide by not defending himself physically or verbally. He wanted out of the bum rap job he was tricked into taken, and Ben was holding the door open for him.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 10:34:52 AM »
I am not sure if the speaking/not speaking is relevant.  I think more to the point, that she could not kill herself, so I think she manipulated everything so that MIB would eventually off her just like Jacob manipulated Ben to a murderous frame of mind and stood there and let him stab him.  Talking or not talking did not matter in that scene and I do not think it mattered when MIB killed his mother.  Because at that point he is not Smokey yet anyway. 

I think you mean MiB manipulated Ben into a murderous state of mind

MiB did, but so did Jacob. When Ben was pouring his heart out about what he'd done for the island, and then Jacob responded with "What about you?"

That'd get me stabby.

But take away everything that Locke said to him, and the simple line of "What about you??" would not drive him that crazy.

We have seen Jacob the ass kicker 3 times this season. He could have defended himself against Ben and his knife with ease. He knew Ben was all emotional and in a stabby mood and said nothing to him that would cause him to act differantly. In essance he commited suicide by not defending himself physically or verbally. He wanted out of the bum rap job he was tricked into taken, and Ben was holding the door open for him.

Also like his Mother he set into motion the events that would lead to his death before he ever had a replacement selected.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 11:36:00 AM »
I am not sure if the speaking/not speaking is relevant.  I think more to the point, that she could not kill herself, so I think she manipulated everything so that MIB would eventually off her just like Jacob manipulated Ben to a murderous frame of mind and stood there and let him stab him.  Talking or not talking did not matter in that scene and I do not think it mattered when MIB killed his mother.  Because at that point he is not Smokey yet anyway. 

I think you mean MiB manipulated Ben into a murderous state of mind

MiB did, but so did Jacob. When Ben was pouring his heart out about what he'd done for the island, and then Jacob responded with "What about you?"

That'd get me stabby.

But take away everything that Locke said to him, and the simple line of "What about you??" would not drive him that crazy.

We have seen Jacob the ass kicker 3 times this season. He could have defended himself against Ben and his knife with ease. He knew Ben was all emotional and in a stabby mood and said nothing to him that would cause him to act differantly. In essance he commited suicide by not defending himself physically or verbally. He wanted out of the bum rap job he was tricked into taken, and Ben was holding the door open for him.

And once again I would like to point out that the reason that Ben was all worked up was because Locke was the one messing with him, appearing as Alex, threatening his life, telling him about murdering Jacob, etc. now I think I understand what you're saying about Jacob, but you have to admit that Ben wasn't really carrying a chip on his shoulder about Jacob until after he got back to the island on the Ajira flight and Locke was manipulating him.

Offline nomteticus

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2010, 11:47:56 AM »
It seems like both brothers wanted the same goal, but for different purposes. Jacob was probably sick of being the watchman, and MIB wanted to leave. Jacob also had to make sure that MIB won't leave, so he still influences Hurley so that he can be replaced.
I know Jacob is a fan of free will, but when someone attacks you with your knife and you do nothing just to protect somebody else's free will, it means you (at least subconsciously) want to die.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2010, 11:52:13 AM »
It seems like both brothers wanted the same goal, but for different purposes. Jacob was probably sick of being the watchman, and MIB wanted to leave. Jacob also had to make sure that MIB won't leave, so he still influences Hurley so that he can be replaced.
I know Jacob is a fan of free will, but when someone attacks you with your knife and you do nothing just to protect somebody else's free will, it means you (at least subconsciously) want to die.

I'm not questioning Jacob's willingness to die. That was plain as day. I'm saying that he was not the one that started Ben on the path of murder. His line of "What about you" was the straw that broke the camel's back, but that alone wasn't what did it. MiB is the one that was inside Ben's head all that time, and then Jacob just said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2010, 01:56:49 PM »
It seems like both brothers wanted the same goal, but for different purposes. Jacob was probably sick of being the watchman, and MIB wanted to leave. Jacob also had to make sure that MIB won't leave, so he still influences Hurley so that he can be replaced.
I know Jacob is a fan of free will, but when someone attacks you with your knife and you do nothing just to protect somebody else's free will, it means you (at least subconsciously) want to die.

I'm not questioning Jacob's willingness to die. That was plain as day. I'm saying that he was not the one that started Ben on the path of murder. His line of "What about you" was the straw that broke the camel's back, but that alone wasn't what did it. MiB is the one that was inside Ben's head all that time, and then Jacob just said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I think we all agree that Locke put Ben in the mindset to kill Jacob, just like he did with Richard. Only this time Jacob didn't kick his ass and talk him out of it. He simply said what he needed to in order for Ben to go through with stabbing him.

I missed these boards for the first 3 episodes, did we ever come to a conclusion as to where Jacobs body went? I know Locke said it burned up, but there was no traces of it in the fire pit. Did he pull an Obi-Wan/Yoda and just fade away into the force island?

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2010, 02:12:48 PM »
It seems like both brothers wanted the same goal, but for different purposes. Jacob was probably sick of being the watchman, and MIB wanted to leave. Jacob also had to make sure that MIB won't leave, so he still influences Hurley so that he can be replaced.
I know Jacob is a fan of free will, but when someone attacks you with your knife and you do nothing just to protect somebody else's free will, it means you (at least subconsciously) want to die.

I'm not questioning Jacob's willingness to die. That was plain as day. I'm saying that he was not the one that started Ben on the path of murder. His line of "What about you" was the straw that broke the camel's back, but that alone wasn't what did it. MiB is the one that was inside Ben's head all that time, and then Jacob just said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I think we all agree that Locke put Ben in the mindset to kill Jacob, just like he did with Richard. Only this time Jacob didn't kick his ass and talk him out of it. He simply said what he needed to in order for Ben to go through with stabbing him.

I missed these boards for the first 3 episodes, did we ever come to a conclusion as to where Jacobs body went? I know Locke said it burned up, but there was no traces of it in the fire pit. Did he pull an Obi-Wan/Yoda and just fade away into the force island?

And really, how thoroughly did you check the fire pit WS??

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2010, 02:23:07 PM »
It seems like both brothers wanted the same goal, but for different purposes. Jacob was probably sick of being the watchman, and MIB wanted to leave. Jacob also had to make sure that MIB won't leave, so he still influences Hurley so that he can be replaced.
I know Jacob is a fan of free will, but when someone attacks you with your knife and you do nothing just to protect somebody else's free will, it means you (at least subconsciously) want to die.

I'm not questioning Jacob's willingness to die. That was plain as day. I'm saying that he was not the one that started Ben on the path of murder. His line of "What about you" was the straw that broke the camel's back, but that alone wasn't what did it. MiB is the one that was inside Ben's head all that time, and then Jacob just said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I think we all agree that Locke put Ben in the mindset to kill Jacob, just like he did with Richard. Only this time Jacob didn't kick his ass and talk him out of it. He simply said what he needed to in order for Ben to go through with stabbing him.

I missed these boards for the first 3 episodes, did we ever come to a conclusion as to where Jacobs body went? I know Locke said it burned up, but there was no traces of it in the fire pit. Did he pull an Obi-Wan/Yoda and just fade away into the force island?

And really, how thoroughly did you check the fire pit WS??
They showed it and there was no crispy guy in there.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2010, 02:26:41 PM »
It seems like both brothers wanted the same goal, but for different purposes. Jacob was probably sick of being the watchman, and MIB wanted to leave. Jacob also had to make sure that MIB won't leave, so he still influences Hurley so that he can be replaced.
I know Jacob is a fan of free will, but when someone attacks you with your knife and you do nothing just to protect somebody else's free will, it means you (at least subconsciously) want to die.

I'm not questioning Jacob's willingness to die. That was plain as day. I'm saying that he was not the one that started Ben on the path of murder. His line of "What about you" was the straw that broke the camel's back, but that alone wasn't what did it. MiB is the one that was inside Ben's head all that time, and then Jacob just said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I think we all agree that Locke put Ben in the mindset to kill Jacob, just like he did with Richard. Only this time Jacob didn't kick his ass and talk him out of it. He simply said what he needed to in order for Ben to go through with stabbing him.

I missed these boards for the first 3 episodes, did we ever come to a conclusion as to where Jacobs body went? I know Locke said it burned up, but there was no traces of it in the fire pit. Did he pull an Obi-Wan/Yoda and just fade away into the force island?

And really, how thoroughly did you check the fire pit WS??
They showed it and there was no crispy guy in there.

Oh, well, then in that case, alright then. I mean, it could be as simple as a prop error. I mean, they told us he burned up in the fire, I don't think we need to over analyze it. Unless it is something more. I mean the young Jacob we have been seeing run around the island could explain where his body went. Maybe it just got repurposed.

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: Anyone else notice
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2010, 02:37:51 PM »
It seems like both brothers wanted the same goal, but for different purposes. Jacob was probably sick of being the watchman, and MIB wanted to leave. Jacob also had to make sure that MIB won't leave, so he still influences Hurley so that he can be replaced.
I know Jacob is a fan of free will, but when someone attacks you with your knife and you do nothing just to protect somebody else's free will, it means you (at least subconsciously) want to die.

I'm not questioning Jacob's willingness to die. That was plain as day. I'm saying that he was not the one that started Ben on the path of murder. His line of "What about you" was the straw that broke the camel's back, but that alone wasn't what did it. MiB is the one that was inside Ben's head all that time, and then Jacob just said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I think we all agree that Locke put Ben in the mindset to kill Jacob, just like he did with Richard. Only this time Jacob didn't kick his ass and talk him out of it. He simply said what he needed to in order for Ben to go through with stabbing him.

I missed these boards for the first 3 episodes, did we ever come to a conclusion as to where Jacobs body went? I know Locke said it burned up, but there was no traces of it in the fire pit. Did he pull an Obi-Wan/Yoda and just fade away into the force island?

And really, how thoroughly did you check the fire pit WS??
They showed it and there was no crispy guy in there.

Oh, well, then in that case, alright then. I mean, it could be as simple as a prop error. I mean, they told us he burned up in the fire, I don't think we need to over analyze it. Unless it is something more. I mean the young Jacob we have been seeing run around the island could explain where his body went. Maybe it just got repurposed.

I now remember that Ilana took some ash from the firepit, I am pretty sure that in order to cremate a body it takes a lot of heat and time. Here is a pic I found of Ben looking into the fire shortly after killing him. This shot is from season 6.