Author Topic: Anyone else feel let down???  (Read 6295 times)

Offline sobrien

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 11:06:11 AM »
I agree with the feeling disappointed camp.

To me this episode took great lengths to walk us to the conclusion that the Jacob - MIB relationship was not as simple as good versus evil:  it is innocence versus knowledge (the more accurate Garden of Eden conflict).  That just means that the motivation for these two for this whole season (up to last night's episode) was a straw man.  Now, maybe that was worth the journey, but I was never in the simple good versus evil camp, so knew SOMETHING like this had to be coming.  In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.

It was 40 minutes to explain who "Adam and Eve" were. 

It was the use of another layer of questions to answer our current questions.  At this point, why give mysteries (who was Jacob and MIB's Mother - and when did she have Juno?) to answer mysteries (Who are MIB and Jacob).  Leave the original mystery that was a better mystery because it was dealing with central characters; don't substitute a new mystery that now includes characters we do not have an investment in at this hour.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2010, 11:18:47 AM »
I feel SEMI let down. I liked the answers we got, but am okay with those we didn't get. Wish they would have shown the Donkey wheel set up before filling the hole. I am okay with the ambiguity about the light, and the other ambiguities, because I think they are going to leave the rest of it up to us while giving up bits and pieces of answers as we go forward. I think they did as good a job as they could have of giving us all the answers we DID get without making it sound like Neo was talking to The Architect.

Offline sillysab

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 11:28:02 AM »
glowing light, equivalent to glowing orb of Alias fame... should have known all along this show was going no where fast.

Offline MachThree

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2010, 11:57:27 AM »
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 11:59:50 AM by MachThree »

Offline sobrien

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 01:13:13 PM »
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 

Does the distinction between starting with evil motives and developing evil actions need to be made.  I don't thing MIB's original motives are intrinsically evil, but the actions taken of late seem awful.

I prefer the concept of sympathetic over pure good/evil when thinking of Jacob ad MIB. 

All the focus on MIB being evil has left out the other half of that discussion:  why are we saying Jacob is good?  What good things has he done?

Offline MachThree

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2010, 01:28:41 PM »
All the focus on MIB being evil has left out the other half of that discussion:  why are we saying Jacob is good?  What good things has he done?

I think that's also what many of us have been saying for a while now.  Why is it good vs evil, instead of two other opposite concepts (fate / destiny  vs. free will, for example)?  Has Jacob done anything good?  Not as far as I can tell - he brings people to the island more or less against their will, for one thing.

Offline Geronimo Jackson

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2010, 01:29:02 PM »
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 

Does the distinction between starting with evil motives and developing evil actions need to be made.  I don't thing MIB's original motives are intrinsically evil, but the actions taken of late seem awful.

I prefer the concept of sympathetic over pure good/evil when thinking of Jacob ad MIB. 

All the focus on MIB being evil has left out the other half of that discussion:  why are we saying Jacob is good?  What good things has he done?

I think we will see an evil side of Jacob there have already been hints.

Offline Maxor127

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2010, 02:02:01 PM »
That's why I didn't read much into what they said about MIB.  I was confident that he'd have a sympathetic backstory.  All they were really saying with that comment is that MIB is the bad guy.  He's the villain of the show.  The antagonist.  In fact, in the podcast where they talk about it, they say Locke is bad... he's the antagonistic force.  They never use the word evil.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2010, 02:17:34 PM »
i agree we are going to be left with two sides of a chess board here. Depending on which side you are on the other side is evil.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2010, 03:38:03 PM »
That's why I didn't read much into what they said about MIB.  I was confident that he'd have a sympathetic backstory.  All they were really saying with that comment is that MIB is the bad guy.  He's the villain of the show.  The antagonist.  In fact, in the podcast where they talk about it, they say Locke is bad... he's the antagonistic force.  They never use the word evil.

This is a very well stated opinion, and it's the one that I agree with. Just because he has a sympathetic backstory does not mean that he can't be the "bad guy" of the story. Heck, should I feel sorry for Hitler because he was failed in art school? Of course not. Granted I have more sympathy for MIB now than I did before, but it just adds more depth to his character. He's not just a 1 dimensional pure evil bad guy.

Offline Suzanne4au2

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2010, 03:39:29 PM »
I have to say after all this discussion and debate this episode is getting better for me. Still not blown away, but with all the ideas and theories out there I am more impressed :D

Offline MachThree

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2010, 03:44:20 PM »
That's why I didn't read much into what they said about MIB.  I was confident that he'd have a sympathetic backstory.  All they were really saying with that comment is that MIB is the bad guy.  He's the villain of the show.  The antagonist.  In fact, in the podcast where they talk about it, they say Locke is bad... he's the antagonistic force.  They never use the word evil.

This is a very well stated opinion, and it's the one that I agree with. Just because he has a sympathetic backstory does not mean that he can't be the "bad guy" of the story. Heck, should I feel sorry for Hitler because he was failed in art school? Of course not. Granted I have more sympathy for MIB now than I did before, but it just adds more depth to his character. He's not just a 1 dimensional pure evil bad guy.
Certainly, in any given story, the protagonists can be "evil" and the antagonists can be "good" - lots of good shows have done this to one degree or another  - The Shield, The Sopranos, The Wire, Prison Break.  

At this point, if MiB is the story's antagonist, and Jacob the or one of the protagonists, I'm fine with that.  But I'm certainly not convinced MiB is evil or Jacob is good, after last night its even more murky.  Not that it needs to be clear, necessarily.  Maybe Darlton just ought not give interviews where they tell us what we should be thinking.  

Offline Madam P

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2010, 03:49:35 PM »
I have to say after all this discussion and debate this episode is getting better for me. Still not blown away, but with all the ideas and theories out there I am more impressed :D

Me, too, Suzanne.  I feel like I agree with just about every post on this thread, so I don't know if I feel let-down or not!   ;D

I definitely agree that Darlton ought not to give any more interviews until it is over.  That whole "you ought to be able to see now that MIB/Flocke is very very bad and has to be stopped" -- well, that just doesn't feel right to me now.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2010, 05:19:16 PM »
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 

Yeah I don't think that they did that at all. I still think MiB is the antagonist of the show. We are seeing very clearly that different choices lead to very different people. Here we have the story of two brothers, one loved more than the other. In the present day we are watching as one member goes around fending and thinking only of himself. He thinks people are inherently bad and corrupt. The other brother has grown into a person with a more forgiving take on people. He has watched them at their most vulnerable and their greatest times and knows that inside all people are capable of good.

In the interview they were labeling the Antagonist of the show, and that hasn;t changed. All that has changed is our view on his backstory.

Offline PMMJ

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Re: Anyone else feel let down???
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2010, 05:39:29 PM »
I think we will see an evil side of Jacob there have already been hints.

Like dragging ships-ful of people to the island and to their deaths, just to prove a point to his brother?