MIB's the GOOD GUY now...

[sobrien]

MIB is NOT Smokey... just another dead body used to further its cause...

MIB is Smokey though. If it is impossible for Jacob to kill his brother, then how could he have died at the cave? He didn't. I said this on another post, but I'll repeat it here, just because we see MIB's body doesn't mean MIB is dead. His life just changed forms, much like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. The caterpillar doesn't die, it just changes form.

I am more feeling after thinking about last night's episode if the whole MIB = Smokie warrants more questioning.  We saw the smoke only after MIB was pushed into the light - into the place that held something worse than death (according to fake mom).  I made the assumption that the smoke monster was MIB - somehow changed by his presence in the light - we even saw his "discarded shell" of human form left behind.  The smoke monster can take the shape of other corpses:  Jack's father, and Locke.  But is Smokie still MIB at heart?  

Jacob released the smoke monster on the island through his evil/bad/wrong actions.  Now Jacob must keep him contained on the island AND still keep people from finding the light.  However, Jacob brings people to the island - presumable as potential candidates to replace him - or to play his game with Smokie who for the purposes here "is" MIB?  It seems to me keeping Smokie locked away, and keeping people from finding the light would be much easier if Jacob would not bring people to the island.  

I take all this to mean that Jacob's job sucks - he wants to stop doing it - he would be as thankful as was Fake mom ("thank you") if he could end it.  Here is the twist:  when MIB says he badly wants to kill Jacob, we assumed that was an evil act.  Instead, couldn't it be that releasing him from the burden of guardian would be welcome as it was for FOM?  Killing Jacob is the final act of kindness he can perform - an act precluded by the covenant formed with Jacob and Fake mom with the wine.

[sobrien]

So smokey is using MIBS last Human memory... because anything new is longer his own... which is to get off the island... but Smokey is the one KILLING in masses using MIBS form...

Still think Casey is on to something that Jacob cannot kill his brother. So when MiB went into the Light, the Light ripped all that was good from him like a magnet, and now all that is left is the evil.

How about not "evil" but untempered desire.  MIB's last desire was to leave, so that is all that remained of him?

[CaseyMac]

So smokey is using MIBS last Human memory... because anything new is longer his own... which is to get off the island... but Smokey is the one KILLING in masses using MIBS form...

Still think Casey is on to something that Jacob cannot kill his brother. So when MiB went into the Light, the Light ripped all that was good from him like a magnet, and now all that is left is the evil.

How about not "evil" but untempered desire.  MIB's last desire was to leave, so that is all that remained of him?

I like where you guys are going with this line of thought. So to bring in a Star Wars metaphor (which is a 1st for me, I know), MIB is kind of like Anakin turning into Darth Vader, where his own desire and dark side come to the surface and overpower and good that was left in him. So, I could kind of see an Obi-Wan line from Jacob talking about his brother, "He is more Smoke now than man, twisted and evil."

[ozman776]

Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

[CaseyMac]

Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

Good question. My theory on that is Jacob got the ability to leave the Island as soon as he took his Mother's job as protector. She clearly had some pretty special abilities, and the whole wine drinking ceremony likely passed those abilities over to Jacob. At the same time, I'm not sure Jacob can exactly come and go as he pleases because he was still tied to the Island as the protector. He could probably leave the Island, only not for any extent of time.

[ozman776]

i think giving smokey human abilities to maneuver / hold things. And to show a donkey wheel that tosses you out somehwere else in the world was a fairly major MISTAKE on TPTB's part.... if they left it like the movie ghost where if you concentrate enough you can kick a can then it would leave no doubt that smokey was indeed incapacitated enough that heaving a wheel a few notches is IMPOSSIBLE, but to show smokey in human form snapping necks and holding babies and down in the FDW hole makes me and i imagine most wonder... WHY not just turn the damm wheel!!!

[BobBX542]

Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

I kind of had a theory, though I never posted it, because I wasn't sure where and when is appropriate, but whatever. I thought that maybe Jacob wasn't actually leaving the island, but rather he was interacting with the people via the mirror. I know it's kind of far fetched, but I mean if you're willing to go on the trip that says the guy has a magic mirror/lighthouse, then you might as well go the extra mile and believe that he is using the magic mirror in this manner.

[CaseyMac]

i think giving smokey human abilities to maneuver / hold things. And to show a donkey wheel that tosses you out somehwere else in the world was a fairly major MISTAKE on TPTB's part.... if they left it like the movie ghost where if you concentrate enough you can kick a can then it would leave no doubt that smokey was indeed incapacitated enough that heaving a wheel a few notches is IMPOSSIBLE, but to show smokey in human form snapping necks and holding babies and down in the FDW hole makes me and i imagine most wonder... WHY not just turn the damm wheel!!!

Perhaps he has tried turning the wheel, but he didn't warp anywhere. We did see him as Christian when Locke turned the wheel, so he knew about the place. My guess is that it didn't work the same way the dynomite didn't work when Richard tried to kill himself.

[DirtyMaggieMae]

It seems to me like the question of good and evil is fairly moot between Jacob and his brother.  There never was really a "good" one or a "bad" one.  They were brothers who wanted different things.  That being said, the smoke is evil.  Whether it is the dark side of the scale torn from MIB in the Light, or incarnation of evil expelled by the light...the Smoke is evil.  (I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the smoke would be the evil incarnate Dogen was talking about?)  
Asking is Jacob is good or evil isn't that important for me... he is there to protect the Light of the island...a rite passed down to him from the previous protector.  

[Suzanne4au2]

Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

I kind of had a theory, though I never posted it, because I wasn't sure where and when is appropriate, but whatever. I thought that maybe Jacob wasn't actually leaving the island, but rather he was interacting with the people via the mirror. I know it's kind of far fetched, but I mean if you're willing to go on the trip that says the guy has a magic mirror/lighthouse, then you might as well go the extra mile and believe that he is using the magic mirror in this manner.

I actually like this theory of him leaving via the lighthouse. I never thought of something like that. I like the idea that the Lighthouse was used for more than something than spying on people. Good Idea!

[ozman776]

i like this idea.... and i wish theyd have shown the lighthouse , even if it was at a distance in a few seasons back around when the sailboat ambush saw the "foot"...
but jacks sentence when arriving at the lighthouse was something to the effect of :-
"why havent we ever noticed this thing before"... meaning it was invisible to everyone until jacobs demise... leaves it as a viewing station and quite possibly could have been used to talk/interact with candidates, much like we are seeing mirrors galore in the ALT timelines, like they are remebering having conversations thru the mirrors before hand... this would be more believable than someone tapping them on the shoulder and steering them with whispers in the ear and paying for stolen mechandise...

alas im looking forward to getting my lost days back now, cause the thinking alone is getting me testy!

[lostlady]

Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

I kind of had a theory, though I never posted it, because I wasn't sure where and when is appropriate, but whatever. I thought that maybe Jacob wasn't actually leaving the island, but rather he was interacting with the people via the mirror. I know it's kind of far fetched, but I mean if you're willing to go on the trip that says the guy has a magic mirror/lighthouse, then you might as well go the extra mile and believe that he is using the magic mirror in this manner.

I actually like this theory of him leaving via the lighthouse. I never thought of something like that. I like the idea that the Lighthouse was used for more than something than spying on people. Good Idea!

That's true. It is probably something like this. Remember Jacob used to 'watch' his brother all the time. It's the same idea as 'watching' and then interacting with people through the lighthouse

[ozman776]

i think giving smokey human abilities to maneuver / hold things. And to show a donkey wheel that tosses you out somehwere else in the world was a fairly major MISTAKE on TPTB's part.... if they left it like the movie ghost where if you concentrate enough you can kick a can then it would leave no doubt that smokey was indeed incapacitated enough that heaving a wheel a few notches is IMPOSSIBLE, but to show smokey in human form snapping necks and holding babies and down in the FDW hole makes me and i imagine most wonder... WHY not just turn the damm wheel!!!

Perhaps he has tried turning the wheel, but he didn't warp anywhere. We did see him as Christian when Locke turned the wheel, so he knew about the place. My guess is that it didn't work the same way the dynomite didn't work when Richard tried to kill himself.

True but if your saying it didnt work because hes tied to the island, then locke who did turn it was a candidate tied to the island and he poofed to tansania or wherever no problem...

[Suzanne4au2]

I don't think I actually weighed in on this idea, but I don't think that Jacob's brother was bad. He just wanted to be back with his people, was mad about being lied to, and wanted to leave the island. I do think that that person is gone once the smoke monster took over. John Locke wasn't a bad person, now that his body has been taken over-whatever took him over is bad. I hope that makes sense all this debating is confusing me  

[lostlady]

I don't think I actually weighed in on this idea, but I don't think that Jacob's brother was bad. He just wanted to be back with his people, was mad about being lied to, and wanted to leave the island. I do think that that person is gone once the smoke monster took over. John Locke wasn't a bad person, now that his body has been taken over-whatever took him over is bad. I hope that makes sense all this debating is confusing me  

exactly! Smokey is evil! Jacob's brother and John Locke were flawed but not evil!