MIB's the GOOD GUY now...

[LouE68]

It doesnt make MiB evil or good...but by him leaving could change things either releasing evil or ending the island, depending on what actually would happen if he gets off the island...we really still don't know....The question is, is MiB any worse than Jacob...both have used people and killed them...does the end justify the means...we really don't know yet...but one could hypothesis until we are blue in the face...we have to see in the end...does he get off island, or does it keep going, we really only have those two choices in this show...he either does or doesnt

[ozman776]

i understand the need to not let SMOKEY leave...but this fake mom made it seem like mib as a young child was to never leave..like it was either HER will, or someones whom we will never get to know now.... it played out like she found 2 children she could TEACH her ways to and when the time come ..one would take over her title as island light protector.... mib leaving her made the choice simple to hand the reighns to jacob.. and her wiping out an entire family of mib led to her demise at the hands of a NON EVIL person...

now jacob retains the leash that keeps him where he doesnt want to be and we are now watching what happens when jacobs leash is broken and he can start his final plans to leave for good....

[nomteticus]

I'm not sure Jacob is good, but he certainly believes he is good. His mother told him, and since he loved her more than anything and wanted her approval (he didn't even despise her for killing his real mom) he grew to believe that he was in fact protecting the island. He killed his brother by impulse, that doesn't really make him evil. Neither does his brother killing the crazy lady, it was clear that he was sorry afterwords.

I don't think that MIB is no longer Jacob's brother. In the discussiions he had with Jacob AFTER becoming Smokey he expressed the same contempt for people he did back when he was in the village and the same desire to leave. Smokey/Jacob's Brother/Locke has been very sincere (crazy mother, he wants to go home, the island doesn't need protecting) as to the ends, just not about the means (killing the candidates). I know I would kill the candidates if they told me I couldn't leave for no apparent reason.

Why wouldn't MIB's mother let him leave? I think it's because he really wanted him and not Jacob to become the new protector, and she was blinded by this. Letting MIB leave would not have been a problem, since a)there was Jacob to fill up the "sucker" position and b)Smokey wasn't unleashed. Was his mother afraid that MIB would return to the island with other people to get the light??? NEWSFLASH: Jacob is the one constantly bringing people to the island. And we saw what happens when you go into the light, so rationally speaking, why would the island need protecting??? Now I know that Egyptians believed that if they don't follow certain rituals every morning the sun won't come up (lol), but apart from that, protect it from what?

[WhatThe]

I think it was made somewhat obvious that Smokie "inhabits" the host body and takes on many of that same person's characteristics, and uses their memories for manipulative purposes. When he was appearing as Jacob's brother, he constantly told Jacob the same thing his real brother told him as they grew up together: "I want to leave the island". When Smokie took on Locke's form, he took on Locke's characteristics and mannerisms all in attempt to manipulate the Losties/candidates. It could be that he can only take on the form OF a candidate (Jacob's brother was a candidate, afterall).

But I think this episode only shows that Jacob's brother wasn't evil...not that the "thing" that has appeared as his brother since his death--and is now appearing as Locke--isn't evil. I think it most definitely is, and last week's episode just confirmed that fact.

[CaseyMac]

I don'tsee how people are saying that MIB died. We have known before this episode, and it is directly said in this episode that Jacob and his brother can't kill each other.

So, with that as a basic foundation, there is no way that Jacob could have killed MIB by throwing him down the cave. However, immediately after we see MIB's dead body. Also, let's remember in Ab Aeterno, MIB tells Richard that Jacob "took his body".

So let's connect the dots. If MIB cannot be killed by Jacob, and we see the Smoke Monster emerge from the cave, then we see MIB's body, then that must mean that while MIB's body may be dead, his soul lives as the Smoke Monster. The Smoke Monster did not absorb MIB's memories, it is MIB's soul.

Thats the logic behind my theory anyway.

[nomteticus]

Jacob's brother can't be dead, since his mother apparently made it out so Jacob could not kill him. So that would be a contradiction. And we know John Locke is dead, even though Smokey inhabits his body and has memories of him. So the only way this makes sense is that Smokey is Jacob's brother and he's not allowed to leave for the same reason that Titus-MIB wasn't allowed to leave (his mother was CRAZY). And if Jacob's brother is truly dead, please don't tell me that Jacob didn't kill him. If you throw someone into a pond, sure, the water kills him, not you, but you can say the same thing about bullets. So

1) either Jacob killed his brother by throwing him into the light, and Smokey is not his bro, but that's impossible since Jacob can't kill Brother
2) Jacob turned MIB into Smokey, so Smokey is still his brother

"I had a crazy mother" CHECK
"I was a person" CHECK
"People are evil, corrupt" CHECK
"I want to go home" CHECK
"I can't kill you" (because of mom's curse) "and I have to find a loophole" CHECK
"I'll kill the candidates too" CHECK

edit: CaseyMac, that's just what I'm saying!

[CaseyMac]

Jacob's brother can't be dead, since his mother apparently made it out so Jacob could not kill him. So that would be a contradiction. And we know John Locke is dead, even though Smokey inhabits his body and has memories of him. So the only way this makes sense is that Smokey is Jacob's brother and he's not allowed to leave for the same reason that Titus-MIB wasn't allowed to leave (his mother was CRAZY). And if Jacob's brother is truly dead, please don't tell me that Jacob didn't kill him. If you throw someone into a pond, sure, the water kills him, not you, but you can say the same thing about bullets. So

1) either Jacob killed his brother by throwing him into the light, and Smokey is not his bro, but that's impossible since Jacob can't kill Brother
2) Jacob turned MIB into Smokey, so Smokey is still his brother

"I had a crazy mother" CHECK
"I was a person" CHECK
"People are evil, corrupt" CHECK
"I want to go home" CHECK
"I can't kill you" (because of mom's curse) "and I have to find a loophole" CHECK
"I'll kill the candidates too" CHECK

edit: CaseyMac, that's just what I'm saying!

/agree!!

[nomteticus]

There is a way around this though: Jacob's brother fused with Smokey, and while Jacob's bro is not evil, Smokey is, and even if Flocke just wants to leave, he has to bring Smokey with him and will accidentally cause the end of the world. I think this is a ****ty explanation, but it would make sense.

[WhatThe]

I don'tsee how people are saying that MIB died. We have known before this episode, and it is directly said in this episode that Jacob and his brother can't kill each other.

So, with that as a basic foundation, there is no way that Jacob could have killed MIB by throwing him down the cave. However, immediately after we see MIB's dead body. Also, let's remember in Ab Aeterno, MIB tells Richard that Jacob "took his body".

So let's connect the dots. If MIB cannot be killed by Jacob, and we see the Smoke Monster emerge from the cave, then we see MIB's body, then that must mean that while MIB's body may be dead, his soul lives as the Smoke Monster. The Smoke Monster did not absorb MIB's memories, it is MIB's soul.

Thats the logic behind my theory anyway.

Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries? lol...And who is to say Jacob killed his brother, perhaps whatever was inside the cave did so.

And since when can't Jacob kill his brother before they became protectors of the island? I know his mom said "I made it so that you can never hurt each other", but Jacob ended up beating the hell out of his brother that very same night--I'd say that qualifies as "hurting" lol. Since we know candidates can kill other candidates (Sawyer--who is a candidate--caused the death of three other candidates by pulling the wires on the bomb), Jacob killing his brother would have been a similar situation since both Jacob and his brother were pretty much "candidates" (their fake mom more or less marked them both as candidates after their births).

[CaseyMac]

There is a way around this though: Jacob's brother fused with Smokey, and while Jacob's bro is not evil, Smokey is, and even if Flocke just wants to leave, he has to bring Smokey with him and will accidentally cause the end of the world. I think this is a ****ty explanation, but it would make sense.

Good point. This may be one of those situations where 2 things are equally true. It is MIB's soul, but also the dark part of the heart of the Island which have voltron'd together to become what we know as the Smoke Monster.

[CaseyMac]

Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries?

What I said was, his body is seperated from his soul. So while his body is dead, his soul still is among the living. We are more than simply the cells that make up our bodies. Like Yoda said, "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

[WhatThe]

1) either Jacob killed his brother by throwing him into the light, and Smokey is not his bro, but that's impossible since Jacob can't kill Brother

That's not impossible. NOBODY can "kill" the Smoke Monster. Widmore's people were firing all kinds of bullets into him, he just walked up to them like the Terminator and killed the gunmen with ease. The only thing you can do is contain Smokie, either with the sonic fences or, in Jacob's case, with whatever means the island protector is given once he/she becomes the island's protector.

And it was never shown that Jacob couldn't kill his own brother.

Think about this for a moment: Ben killed the current island protector--Jacob--with that daggar. Jacob's brother killed the island protector at the time (his fake mom) with the same daggar. I don't think Ben was a candidate (or still a candidate) at the time he killed Jacob, so perhaps the human "MiB" was not a candidate at the time Jacob threw him into the cave...which would mean he COULD be killed by Jacob now that his "candidate" status was no longer in effect.

[nomteticus]

Well if Jacob wouldn't have thrown his brotha into the caves, and instead would have just let him go, there would be noone to protect the island from. And Jacob (not Smokey) constantly brings new people to the island helping Smokey create that loophole. And he dies like a wimp. He's not a very good protector, now is he?

[WhatThe]

Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries?

What I said was, his body is seperated from his soul. So while his body is dead, his soul still is among the living. We are more than simply the cells that make up our bodies. Like Yoda said, "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

You said that you couldn't understand how anyone could say Jacob's brother was dead because Jacob and his brother "couldn't kill each other". Well, if the existence of a soul means the person isn't "really" dead, then MiB should have just stuck the daggar into Jacob himself...because we know Jacob's soul is still among the living.

[CaseyMac]

Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries?

What I said was, his body is seperated from his soul. So while his body is dead, his soul still is among the living. We are more than simply the cells that make up our bodies. Like Yoda said, "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

You said that you couldn't understand how anyone could say Jacob's brother was dead because Jacob and his brother "couldn't kill each other". Well, if the existence of a soul means the person isn't "really" dead, then MiB should have just stuck the daggar into Jacob himself...because we know Jacob's soul is still among the living.

No. Jacob is dead. Thats why Hurley talks to him.

The only thing that confuses me a bit about that is that Sawyer was able to see Jacob as a kid. But adult ghost Jacob could only be seen by Hurley. So if you are a ghost, you are dead. Also, Miles, who can talk to dead people in a different way, found out from dead Jacob how he died.

We know Jacob is dead.