Author Topic: And we have closure on THAT topic...  (Read 6300 times)

Offline conway

  • Background Extra
  • *
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2010, 09:09:55 AM »
I hope we get some of these answers next week in an episode that I think is about MIB and Jacob.  Didn't MIB ( though a liar) say that Jacob stole his identity?  So if we see  these characters long past will MIB be called "Jacob"?  Also, I hope they explain the differences....Jacob was killed.... MIB/Smokey  gets shot at and not even a mark shows up.  Jacob left the island to interact with some of the Losties, MIB cannot leave the island   I am anticipating that this should the best episode yet.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2010, 11:02:49 AM »
I_am_Jacob,

Can't say I had much emotion in this episode. It's been along time coming, maybe the best episode with them at focus. Good episode though...

HEY GUY! Welcome back bud. As for this episode I didn't get too emotional either. Mainly because I don't really like Sun at all. Jin was alright, but it was a neccessary evil Now to address the people who think there is still ambiguity.

NO NO NO NO NO NO.  You are all wrong . The writers clearly state that he is the antagonist and needs to be stopped. They said those exact words. Quote it. I don't care how badly you want to be right, you are completely and utterly hopeless. All the speculation on that topic is over. MiB is evil and must not be allowed to complete what he started.

Writers Strike - You say he "Gave them a choice". He NEVER gave them a choice. That bomb was ending up on Jack's back the mmoment he took the watch from the dead guard at the Ajira plane. You are a complete idiot if you think MiB had any intentions of just hopping on the sub and floating away. That is not his end game as he clearly stated to Claire at the end as he grabbed his gun. He is off to "Finish what he started." He started killing the candidates off, and it is that he is off to finish.

nometicus - I agree that we don't know his motives at all. That IS true. However every homocidal maniac thinks his motives are pure. There HAS to be a reason he is being kept there. Do you think he is just an innocent column of black smoke that just wants to be loved and go volunteer at a homeless shelter? Probably not. MiB is trying to kill off all the characters we have grown to love over the past six seasons. I find that to be a pretty evil thing to do. I don't care why he is trying to do it, I just care that he is killing even more people.

No doubt the MiB is evil.  What remains to be seen, IMHO, is about Jacob.  Good, or evil in a way too and opposed to MiB for reasons other than good vs. evil?

I agree with this. No way we can yet deduce Jacob's motives and they may be a little more Grey. However they have been DRILLING this whole Black and White issue home. Maybe that's a little hint to us that this will be a good versus evil showdown.

NO!  No closure at all!  Maybe all that "Evil" Locke is doing is trying to kill all of them off because that is the only way they can reach that wonderful world in the other timeline....And if he fails it simply CEASES TO EXIST. 

Please for everyone's sake stop putting Evil in quotes. He is EVIL. The writers said it themselves. When are all the people that are still clinging to the faint hope that MiB will turn out to be the good guy going to abandon that and allow some constructive discussion. All the sane people on here have to keep reminding you of all the evidence stacked against your "Hero." It gets tiresome. If he is just trying to kill them off so the Sideflash can occur than why didn't he let anyone else in on that. Why when talking about the island doesn't he tell people that this is all an illusion. Sure maybe they wouldn't believe him off hand, but I am sure some of them would. Or why didn't he tell Sayid that is how he could get his True Love  (Shannon) Back. All he had to do was kill off six more people. The zombie would have done it no problem if he wasn't sent to Desmond first. Desmond seemed to bring him back a bit. Or Claire. She's a bit loopey enough. Tell her she can have Aaron back if she kills the people pretending to be her friends. Tell her this is all an illusion and if all of them are dead then everyone can have a nice happy life in the Sideways universe. She'd believe everything he threw at her. The reason he didn't do these things is because that is not the case. MiB is Evil Incarnate. He wants to kill off everyone who stands in his way of leaving the island. His only reason for doing so is for his own freedom. He said as much to Jacob on the Log. When Jacob told him someone would replace him, MiB responded, "I'll kill them too." All this blinding evidence and still people agree to follow. This is how cults are formed people.

Also to those who say he is just doing what he needs to be free...and asking wouldn't I do the same. Would you say the same about a death row inmate who killed 20 guards in the process of his escape? That guy (or girl) is just doing what he needs to be free. All well and good right?

Offline Kurtis

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 11:08:58 AM »
I_am_Jacob,

Can't say I had much emotion in this episode. It's been along time coming, maybe the best episode with them at focus. Good episode though...

HEY GUY! Welcome back bud. As for this episode I didn't get too emotional either. Mainly because I don't really like Sun at all. Jin was alright, but it was a neccessary evil Now to address the people who think there is still ambiguity.

NO NO NO NO NO NO.  You are all wrong . The writers clearly state that he is the antagonist and needs to be stopped. They said those exact words. Quote it. I don't care how badly you want to be right, you are completely and utterly hopeless. All the speculation on that topic is over. MiB is evil and must not be allowed to complete what he started.

Writers Strike - You say he "Gave them a choice". He NEVER gave them a choice. That bomb was ending up on Jack's back the mmoment he took the watch from the dead guard at the Ajira plane. You are a complete idiot if you think MiB had any intentions of just hopping on the sub and floating away. That is not his end game as he clearly stated to Claire at the end as he grabbed his gun. He is off to "Finish what he started." He started killing the candidates off, and it is that he is off to finish.

nometicus - I agree that we don't know his motives at all. That IS true. However every homocidal maniac thinks his motives are pure. There HAS to be a reason he is being kept there. Do you think he is just an innocent column of black smoke that just wants to be loved and go volunteer at a homeless shelter? Probably not. MiB is trying to kill off all the characters we have grown to love over the past six seasons. I find that to be a pretty evil thing to do. I don't care why he is trying to do it, I just care that he is killing even more people.

No doubt the MiB is evil.  What remains to be seen, IMHO, is about Jacob.  Good, or evil in a way too and opposed to MiB for reasons other than good vs. evil?

I agree with this. No way we can yet deduce Jacob's motives and they may be a little more Grey. However they have been DRILLING this whole Black and White issue home. Maybe that's a little hint to us that this will be a good versus evil showdown.

NO!  No closure at all!  Maybe all that "Evil" Locke is doing is trying to kill all of them off because that is the only way they can reach that wonderful world in the other timeline....And if he fails it simply CEASES TO EXIST. 

Please for everyone's sake stop putting Evil in quotes. He is EVIL. The writers said it themselves. When are all the people that are still clinging to the faint hope that MiB will turn out to be the good guy going to abandon that and allow some constructive discussion. All the sane people on here have to keep reminding you of all the evidence stacked against your "Hero." It gets tiresome. If he is just trying to kill them off so the Sideflash can occur than why didn't he let anyone else in on that. Why when talking about the island doesn't he tell people that this is all an illusion. Sure maybe they wouldn't believe him off hand, but I am sure some of them would. Or why didn't he tell Sayid that is how he could get his True Love  (Shannon) Back. All he had to do was kill off six more people. The zombie would have done it no problem if he wasn't sent to Desmond first. Desmond seemed to bring him back a bit. Or Claire. She's a bit loopey enough. Tell her she can have Aaron back if she kills the people pretending to be her friends. Tell her this is all an illusion and if all of them are dead then everyone can have a nice happy life in the Sideways universe. She'd believe everything he threw at her. The reason he didn't do these things is because that is not the case. MiB is Evil Incarnate. He wants to kill off everyone who stands in his way of leaving the island. His only reason for doing so is for his own freedom. He said as much to Jacob on the Log. When Jacob told him someone would replace him, MiB responded, "I'll kill them too." All this blinding evidence and still people agree to follow. This is how cults are formed people.

Also to those who say he is just doing what he needs to be free...and asking wouldn't I do the same. Would you say the same about a death row inmate who killed 20 guards in the process of his escape? That guy (or girl) is just doing what he needs to be free. All well and good right?

Amen, brother! MIB/Smokey is evil and must be stopped. If you cannot deduce that from what has happened this season, through last night's episode, then the writers telling you....he is evil and must be stopped...should just about do it.

Offline BobBX542

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 11:09:07 AM »
I thought we had closure on this when he threw Desmond down a well, and told Sayid to go kill him.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2010, 11:12:33 AM »
I thought we had closure on this when he threw Desmond down a well, and told Sayid to go kill him.

Yeah I thought we would have too. There were posts right when I got on the next day that said he may have been trying to get Desmond to see something. I figured people may have just been slow. Now it seems people are more than slow.

Offline BobBX542

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2010, 11:16:37 AM »
I thought we had closure on this when he threw Desmond down a well, and told Sayid to go kill him.

Yeah I thought we would have too. There were posts right when I got on the next day that said he may have been trying to get Desmond to see something. I figured people may have just been slow. Now it seems people are more than slow.

Dude, you might one to tone it down a bit. It's just a TV show. LOL, but for cereal.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 11:18:52 AM »
I thought we had closure on this when he threw Desmond down a well, and told Sayid to go kill him.

Yeah I thought we would have too. There were posts right when I got on the next day that said he may have been trying to get Desmond to see something. I figured people may have just been slow. Now it seems people are more than slow.

Dude, you might one to tone it down a bit. It's just a TV show. LOL, but for cereal.

I retract. Breathing now.

Offline nomteticus

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2010, 11:21:50 AM »
You are right in most of what you are saying, except for equating EVIL with killing "our beloved losties". There is a double standard in every show according to which only if the main characters are killed then the killer is deemed EVIL. Nobody cares about the woman that Sun shot in the boat, the man that Hurley ran over, Sawyer killing Tom Friendly in cold blood, Jack shooting Locke from point blank range, Juliet & Kate killing innocent Dharma folk instead of telling them about the time travel via Marvin Candle, or Widmore attempting to kill children (not just Alex, but also the kids who were with Cindy ON THE PLANE YET NOONE CARES ABOUT, not even Jack, who doesn't bother to take them to the boat with Sawyer and Kate. What kind of a good man does that?).

We don't know enough about the smoke monster. He says he was a man and he was trapped by Jacob (probably inside the smoke costume) and I happen to believe him. Maybe he did something bad to get trapped, but maybe he didn't. And maybe after 2000 years of "judging" people because Jacob put him up to it (and judges are supposed to be just, not EVIL) he's sick and wants to get away. And "our beloved losties" are in his way since they are candidates. Since none of them are particularly good or remarkable people, and since the smoke monster himself has abandoned ethics (being a smoke monster does that to you), he will kill them if necessary, but I find it hard to imagine that he would spread the evil like a disease, as somebody else mentioned on this forum. Maybe he wants to die, to be mortal again, who knows?

I am willing to concede that MIB is not a good character or the hero of the show (an ideea I believed a couple of episodes ago), but from that to 'evil incarnate' there is a long way. Jacob, Widmore, Ben, Sayid or Sawyer are by my standards better candidates for that position.

Hopefully we'll find out more in the following episode. I for one would really be dissapointed if Carlton wasn't throwing a red herring about his evilness, since I as an audience member cannot hate Smokey in neither black shirt or Locke costume.

Offline lostfan777

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1477
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2010, 11:22:13 AM »
I've always thought of Jacob as good, but I've kept an open mind that I might be wrong, because he has been manipulative and has steered many people to their deaths.  But I'm laughing out loud that MIB's supporters, who have been insisting that Jacob is the evil one, are still talking about 'necessary collateral damage' and how killing the characters might be 'doing what's best for them' by getting them to the better alt world.  No way in HELL that he might just be EVIL, huh?  It's hilarious!  You must be watching the show through a roll of paper towels!  No offense intended, of course!   ;)

IAJ, I was just about to tell you to take some deep breaths and you read my mind!   :D  You're going to get blisters on your fingers if you keep trying to convince these people!   ;D

Offline CastawayCayley

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4855
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2010, 11:27:00 AM »
Writers Strike - You say he "Gave them a choice". He NEVER gave them a choice. That bomb was ending up on Jack's back the mmoment he took the watch from the dead guard at the Ajira plane. You are a complete idiot if you think MiB had any intentions of just hopping on the sub and floating away. That is not his end game as he clearly stated to Claire at the end as he grabbed his gun. He is off to "Finish what he started." He started killing the candidates off, and it is that he is off to finish.

Please watch your tone. We have a rule here: Attack the idea, not the person. I know you're all worked up so this is just a friendly reminder to everyone. But it can be turned into an official warning if it continues.

Thanks.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2010, 12:08:23 PM »
Writers Strike - You say he "Gave them a choice". He NEVER gave them a choice. That bomb was ending up on Jack's back the mmoment he took the watch from the dead guard at the Ajira plane. You are a complete idiot if you think MiB had any intentions of just hopping on the sub and floating away. That is not his end game as he clearly stated to Claire at the end as he grabbed his gun. He is off to "Finish what he started." He started killing the candidates off, and it is that he is off to finish.

Please watch your tone. We have a rule here: Attack the idea, not the person. I know you're all worked up so this is just a friendly reminder to everyone. But it can be turned into an official warning if it continues.

Thanks.

I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking W_S specifically. I should have used the quote function there to specify it was the Idea I was attacking. I will be more careful next time.

You are right in most of what you are saying, except for equating EVIL with killing "our beloved losties". There is a double standard in every show according to which only if the main characters are killed then the killer is deemed EVIL. Nobody cares about the woman that Sun shot in the boat, the man that Hurley ran over, Sawyer killing Tom Friendly in cold blood, Jack shooting Locke from point blank range, Juliet & Kate killing innocent Dharma folk instead of telling them about the time travel via Marvin Candle, or Widmore attempting to kill children (not just Alex, but also the kids who were with Cindy ON THE PLANE YET NOONE CARES ABOUT, not even Jack, who doesn't bother to take them to the boat with Sawyer and Kate. What kind of a good man does that?).

We don't know enough about the smoke monster. He says he was a man and he was trapped by Jacob (probably inside the smoke costume) and I happen to believe him. Maybe he did something bad to get trapped, but maybe he didn't. And maybe after 2000 years of "judging" people because Jacob put him up to it (and judges are supposed to be just, not EVIL) he's sick and wants to get away. And "our beloved losties" are in his way since they are candidates. Since none of them are particularly good or remarkable people, and since the smoke monster himself has abandoned ethics (being a smoke monster does that to you), he will kill them if necessary, but I find it hard to imagine that he would spread the evil like a disease, as somebody else mentioned on this forum. Maybe he wants to die, to be mortal again, who knows?

I am willing to concede that MIB is not a good character or the hero of the show (an ideea I believed a couple of episodes ago), but from that to 'evil incarnate' there is a long way. Jacob, Widmore, Ben, Sayid or Sawyer are by my standards better candidates for that position.

Hopefully we'll find out more in the following episode. I for one would really be dissapointed if Carlton wasn't throwing a red herring about his evilness, since I as an audience member cannot hate Smokey in neither black shirt or Locke costume.

I stated in my post that a person's motives in their minds are rarely less than just. It is unfortunate that you are going to have a hard time disliking MiB regardless of form, because it appears that is where it is heading. TPTB rarely come as clean as they did in that interview. I don't think it is a red herring at all. I think it was their last ditch effort to get people to realize wehre the show is heading. They dug their own graves with how ambiguous they have been over the years. Now when they try to be clear about something people tend to think it is another twist. This is not an M. Night movie. Alas it seems that there will always be people out their to back the Wingnuts. Wingnut here being MiB. I am starting to fear however that at the end of the series there will wstill be those who belive MiB was good all along.

Offline Writers_Strike

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 865
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2010, 12:30:00 PM »
Don't worry no offence taken from that comment. I do recall from season 1 or 2 that the writers/producers said no to time travel or alternate universes, look where that has led us. So excuse me if I don't drink the kool-aid just yet, I want to make sure it's not tainted first.

My whole argument has been more about is Jacob evil more then it has been is MiB good. I admit my last post was worded poorly. Sure MiB killed people and is portrayed as the antagonist in the series, but if it was not for Jacob and his bet hundreds if not thousands of people he brought to the island would have led full and meaningful lives. Was smokey to blame for killing them all? I don't know, but what I do know is he would not have had the chance if Jacob let the ships sail on by. It's like bringing a bunch of children to a known pedophiles house. He may do all the evil things, but you are a sick bastard for given him the opportunity in the first place. I know there is a light and dark/ good vs evil theme that has been around since Locke showed the colored stones to Walt. Is MiB pure evil? Probably. Is Jacob Pure good? Defiantly not! You can't have pure evil with out pure good, and Jacob is was not pure good

Offline I_Am_Jacob

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2010, 12:34:28 PM »
Don't worry no offence taken from that comment. I do recall from season 1 or 2 that the writers/producers said no to time travel or alternate universes, look where that has led us. So excuse me if I don't drink the kool-aid just yet, I want to make sure it's not tainted first.

My whole argument has been more about is Jacob evil more then it has been is MiB good. I admit my last post was worded poorly. Sure MiB killed people and is portrayed as the antagonist in the series, but if it was not for Jacob and his bet hundreds if not thousands of people he brought to the island would have led full and meaningful lives. Was smokey to blame for killing them all? I don't know, but what I do know is he would not have had the chance if Jacob let the ships sail on by. It's like bringing a bunch of children to a known pedophiles house. He may do all the evil things, but you are a sick bastard for given him the opportunity in the first place. I know there is a light and dark/ good vs evil theme that has been around since Locke showed the colored stones to Walt. Is MiB pure evil? Probably. Is Jacob Pure good? Defiantly not! You can't have pure evil with out pure good, and Jacob is was not pure good

Here's the thing. I think the Sideflashes are a "Thanks for Playing Our Little Game" present from Jacob. I think that all those thousands of people who he brought to the island eventually go on to live those lives they would have lead without the island. I think that is what we are going to see in our resolution here too. Once all is said and done with the island a person's consciousness SKEWS (Doc Brown underlining) into the Sideflash universe and they live happily ever after there. IF they can accept it. If not, then they end up in the Santa Rosa until they can accept it.

Offline lostlady

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1033
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2010, 01:08:11 PM »
Don't worry no offence taken from that comment. I do recall from season 1 or 2 that the writers/producers said no to time travel or alternate universes, look where that has led us. So excuse me if I don't drink the kool-aid just yet, I want to make sure it's not tainted first.

My whole argument has been more about is Jacob evil more then it has been is MiB good. I admit my last post was worded poorly. Sure MiB killed people and is portrayed as the antagonist in the series, but if it was not for Jacob and his bet hundreds if not thousands of people he brought to the island would have led full and meaningful lives. Was smokey to blame for killing them all? I don't know, but what I do know is he would not have had the chance if Jacob let the ships sail on by. It's like bringing a bunch of children to a known pedophiles house. He may do all the evil things, but you are a sick bastard for given him the opportunity in the first place. I know there is a light and dark/ good vs evil theme that has been around since Locke showed the colored stones to Walt. Is MiB pure evil? Probably. Is Jacob Pure good? Defiantly not! You can't have pure evil with out pure good, and Jacob is was not pure good
Here's the thing. I think the Sideflashes are a "Thanks for Playing Our Little Game" present from Jacob. I think that all those thousands of people who he brought to the island eventually go on to live those lives they would have lead without the island. I think that is what we are going to see in our resolution here too. Once all is said and done with the island a person's consciousness SKEWS (Doc Brown underlining) into the Sideflash universe and they live happily ever after there. IF they can accept it. If not, then they end up in the Santa Rosa until they can accept it.

I for one am hoping this is how the ending of Lost goes.

Offline grizn0

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
    • View Profile
Re: And we have closure on THAT topic...
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2010, 01:15:28 PM »
Don't worry no offence taken from that comment. I do recall from season 1 or 2 that the writers/producers said no to time travel or alternate universes, look where that has led us. So excuse me if I don't drink the kool-aid just yet, I want to make sure it's not tainted first.

My whole argument has been more about is Jacob evil more then it has been is MiB good. I admit my last post was worded poorly. Sure MiB killed people and is portrayed as the antagonist in the series, but if it was not for Jacob and his bet hundreds if not thousands of people he brought to the island would have led full and meaningful lives. Was smokey to blame for killing them all? I don't know, but what I do know is he would not have had the chance if Jacob let the ships sail on by. It's like bringing a bunch of children to a known pedophiles house. He may do all the evil things, but you are a sick bastard for given him the opportunity in the first place. I know there is a light and dark/ good vs evil theme that has been around since Locke showed the colored stones to Walt. Is MiB pure evil? Probably. Is Jacob Pure good? Defiantly not! You can't have pure evil with out pure good, and Jacob is was not pure good
Here's the thing. I think the Sideflashes are a "Thanks for Playing Our Little Game" present from Jacob. I think that all those thousands of people who he brought to the island eventually go on to live those lives they would have lead without the island. I think that is what we are going to see in our resolution here too. Once all is said and done with the island a person's consciousness SKEWS (Doc Brown underlining) into the Sideflash universe and they live happily ever after there. IF they can accept it. If not, then they end up in the Santa Rosa until they can accept it.

I for one am hoping this is how the ending of Lost goes.
I can totally get on board with this. I never liked the idea of the sideverse being the result of an MIB "win" but I DO like it being the result of a Jacob "win".