Author Topic: Does someone need to be left behind?  (Read 2112 times)

Offline Holland34

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Does someone need to be left behind?
« on: April 20, 2010, 08:08:49 PM »
Locke (Flocke / MiB / etc) said that he needed to get everyone together so they could leave the island... similar to the process for those that came back to the island.  But he also told Ben that the island needs a new Jacob (paraphrasing).  Are these ideas contradicting?  Can the person that is left behind be a "non-candidate"? (At least, as far as we are defining candidates.)  Or does Locke need all of the candidates dead so he can finally leave the island and is gathering them for some nefarious plan that would lead to their deaths?

Offline Kurtis

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2010, 12:23:00 AM »
Locke (Flocke / MiB / etc) said that he needed to get everyone together so they could leave the island... similar to the process for those that came back to the island.  But he also told Ben that the island needs a new Jacob (paraphrasing).  Are these ideas contradicting?  Can the person that is left behind be a "non-candidate"? (At least, as far as we are defining candidates.)  Or does Locke need all of the candidates dead so he can finally leave the island and is gathering them for some nefarious plan that would lead to their deaths?

I think he wants them all dead so there is no one left to take Jacob's place. He could just need to get them off the island, but that just wouldn't be evil enough for Mr. Evil Incarnate himself.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 01:06:00 PM »
Locke (Flocke / MiB / etc) said that he needed to get everyone together so they could leave the island... similar to the process for those that came back to the island.  But he also told Ben that the island needs a new Jacob (paraphrasing).  Are these ideas contradicting?  Can the person that is left behind be a "non-candidate"? (At least, as far as we are defining candidates.)  Or does Locke need all of the candidates dead so he can finally leave the island and is gathering them for some nefarious plan that would lead to their deaths?

I have a feeling he needs then all dead. I think the statement to Ben was one that was intended to manipulate him, as MiB has manipulated everyone he has come in contact with so far. He knew Ben cared about the island and so he played into that desire in order to try to thin out the Losties numbers. Now that Michael conveniently steered the Losties over to Locke's camp, he can carry out a much more dastardly plan. With Jack left back with Locke, he can go on manipulating Jack into trying to get all the Losties together in a small area and kill them all. Perhaps with one of those Mortar Shells. Not sure how he wants to do it, but I am pretty confident that MiB wants them all dead.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2010, 03:25:49 PM »
Locke (Flocke / MiB / etc) said that he needed to get everyone together so they could leave the island... similar to the process for those that came back to the island.  But he also told Ben that the island needs a new Jacob (paraphrasing).  Are these ideas contradicting?  Can the person that is left behind be a "non-candidate"? (At least, as far as we are defining candidates.)  Or does Locke need all of the candidates dead so he can finally leave the island and is gathering them for some nefarious plan that would lead to their deaths?

I don't think MIB wants them dead. Widmore, the nice guy, was doing a nice job killing Jack with his bombs.
If MIB wanted Jack dead he could just let him die there.
MIB never said the island needed a new Jacob or protection. He told Ben that he was gathering a group of people to leave the island with and that Ben could be in charge of the island once everybody, including MIB himself left the island.

Offline MachThree

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2010, 11:42:08 AM »
I would say that Ben was unnecessary on Ajira 316 - it would have made it back to the island with or without him.  And, in fact, thinking back to Ajira makes me think that it is Jin, and not Sun, who is a candidate, as all of the candidates (if you consider Jin to be one) were already back in 1977, "flashed" there when Ajira crashed, or were dead (Locke). 

So its not a contradiction to say someone needs to stay behind - if that someone is Ben.  Or, if that someone is anyone other than a candidate. 

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2010, 12:18:15 PM »
MIB once asked Jacob, "Why don't you just let me leave?"  With Jacob now dead, I think MIB can't leave unless Jacob's replacement agrees to let him go.  Since he doesn't know who Jacob's replacement is yet (welcome to the club!) having them all agree to leave together with him would also work.  He doesn't want to kill any of them because he needs them to think he is the good guy.  Maybe if they were all dead and there was no one to replace Jacob, he'd be free to leave, but since he can't kill them himself it would be easier to charm them into thinking he's on their side and get them to agree to leave with him than it would be to convince them to kill each other. 

So to answer the title question, I think someone does need to be left behind to keep MIB trapped.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2010, 12:51:42 PM »
Locke (Flocke / MiB / etc) said that he needed to get everyone together so they could leave the island... similar to the process for those that came back to the island.  But he also told Ben that the island needs a new Jacob (paraphrasing).  Are these ideas contradicting?  Can the person that is left behind be a "non-candidate"? (At least, as far as we are defining candidates.)  Or does Locke need all of the candidates dead so he can finally leave the island and is gathering them for some nefarious plan that would lead to their deaths?

I don't think MIB wants them dead. Widmore, the nice guy, was doing a nice job killing Jack with his bombs.
If MIB wanted Jack dead he could just let him die there.
MIB never said the island needed a new Jacob or protection. He told Ben that he was gathering a group of people to leave the island with and that Ben could be in charge of the island once everybody, including MIB himself left the island.

Yeah that's all well and good. Unless JACK is not the only one he needs dead. If he needs all the Losties dead Jack becomes a very valuable player. Jack can get close to the rest of the group. MiB could have seen this opportunity for what it was. He is going to use Jack to get close to the rest of the Losties and try to kill them all at once.


And What he told Ben was completely contradictory to what he told Sawyer in the Cave. Sawyer was told, "It's just an island." Ben was told that someone was going to have to stay behind. No one would have to stay behind if the Island is just and island.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2010, 04:31:00 PM »
I would say that Ben was unnecessary on Ajira 316 - it would have made it back to the island with or without him.  And, in fact, thinking back to Ajira makes me think that it is Jin, and not Sun, who is a candidate, as all of the candidates (if you consider Jin to be one) were already back in 1977, "flashed" there when Ajira crashed, or were dead (Locke). 

So its not a contradiction to say someone needs to stay behind - if that someone is Ben.  Or, if that someone is anyone other than a candidate. 

Ah, but Jacob was still alive then. Plus MIB needed Ben to kill Jacob since he can't do it himself.

Also, MIB told Ben the Island needed someone, but he told Sawyer the Island didn't need anyone. Thats partly why I've never trusted him.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2010, 05:18:53 PM »
LOCKE: It means you have three choices. First, you can do nothing and see how all this plays out. And possibly, your name will get crossed out. Second option. You can accept the job. Become the new Jacob. And protect the island.
SAWYER: Protect it from what?
LOCKE: From nothing, James. That's the joke, there is nothing to protect it from, its just a damn island. And it will be perfectly fine without Jacob or you, or any of the other people; whose lives he wasted.
SAWYER: You said there were three choices?
LOCKE: The third choice, James, is that we just go. We just get the hell off this island. We never look back.

LOCKE: I don't want you to die Ben. In fact I went back to the statue to get you, but you'd already gone.
BEN: Get me? For what?
LOCKE: I'm gathering a group to leave this place for good. But once we're gone, someone's going to need to be in charge of the island.

Jacob says the island is a cork to hold MIB. What is Ben going to do on the island once Jacob is dead and MIB and the
candidates left? He can be in charge of the island, but the island would have no purpose anymore. It is just a damn island and Ben can be in charge of it.

Offline MachThree

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2010, 05:57:46 PM »
LOCKE: It means you have three choices. First, you can do nothing and see how all this plays out. And possibly, your name will get crossed out. Second option. You can accept the job. Become the new Jacob. And protect the island.
SAWYER: Protect it from what?
LOCKE: From nothing, James. That's the joke, there is nothing to protect it from, its just a damn island. And it will be perfectly fine without Jacob or you, or any of the other people; whose lives he wasted.
SAWYER: You said there were three choices?
LOCKE: The third choice, James, is that we just go. We just get the hell off this island. We never look back.

LOCKE: I don't want you to die Ben. In fact I went back to the statue to get you, but you'd already gone.
BEN: Get me? For what?
LOCKE: I'm gathering a group to leave this place for good. But once we're gone, someone's going to need to be in charge of the island.

Jacob says the island is a cork to hold MIB. What is Ben going to do on the island once Jacob is dead and MIB and the
candidates left? He can be in charge of the island, but the island would have no purpose anymore. It is just a damn island and Ben can be in charge of it.
But maybe giving Ben stewardship of the island was the carrot Locke held out to Ben in order to try and gain Ben's help, whether or not Locke was sincere in his offer or really needed someone to stay behind or not.  After all, what is it Ben wanted?  His power and leadership position back.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2010, 07:06:55 PM »
If he wanted Ben's help he only needed to say:
Widmore is on hydra-island, he is back on the island to take it back. Remember what he did to Alex?
I think Ben would have gone there swimming.

I don't think MIB needs Ben's help at all.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2010, 11:57:08 AM »
If he wanted Ben's help he only needed to say:
Widmore is on hydra-island, he is back on the island to take it back. Remember what he did to Alex?
I think Ben would have gone there swimming.

I don't think MIB needs Ben's help at all.

Well, he did try to get Ben to go to Hydra island under the pretense that they were all meeting there, when in reality it turns out that he was trying to have him ambushed by Widmore's people. So, I guess you're right, he doesn't need Ben's help.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 12:02:38 PM »
He may not need Ben's help at all, and just wanted Ben to be away from Ilana's group. One less pawn to worry about.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 02:05:13 AM »
From "The Incident":

MAN IN BLACK: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

JACOB: Yes.

MAN IN BLACK: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

********

From "Ab Aeterno":

JACOB: So you tried to kill me?

MAN IN BLACK: You expect an apology?

JACOB: No. I guess I'm just wondering why you did it.

MAN IN BLACK: Because I want to leave. Just let me leave, Jacob.

JACOB: As long as I'm alive, you're not going anywhere.

MAN IN BLACK: Well then, now you know why I want to kill you. And I will kill you, Jacob.

JACOB: Even if you do so, somebody else will take my place.

MAN IN BLACK: Then I'll kill them too.

********

I'd say MiB doesn't need the candidates to leave with him. He would be fine just killing them all. However, it took him a helluva long time to find a loophole that allowed him to kill Jacob. I doubt MiB wants to go through all that trouble again to kill the Island's new protector, especially since he doesn't know exactly which of the candidates will BE the next leader. He'd have to kill them all, just to be safe. And ESPECIALLY since it appears MiB can't kill the new Island "protector" and the candidates himself.

So having all the candidates leave the island with him would seem to be a smarter solution. Because that leaves the Island leader-less and without a protector, so it's without anyone to keep MiB from leaving himself. And also, another thought: it might be that, once he leaves the island, MiB will have the power/authority/whatever to kill the candidates, but while they're on the island he may not be able to.


So why does he need Ben? Here's a clue, maybe, possibly lol:

From "Dr. Linus":

LOCKE: I'm gathering a group to leave this place for good. But once we're gone, someone's going to need to be in charge of the island.

BEN: Me?

LOCKE: I can't think of a better man for the job.

BEN: Well it doesn't seem very likely does it, under the circumstances. How am I going to get away from...

[Locke interrupts him by apparently releasing Ben's leg restraint telekinetically]

LOCKE: Come to the other island, to the Hydra station. That's where we'll be.

BEN: She'll come after me.

LOCKE: 200 yards inland there's a tree in a clearing with a rifle leaning up against it. If you go now you'll get there first, and you'll have the drop on her. But don't hesitate - she won't. See you soon, Ben.

********

It could be that MiB wanted Ilana dead, but can not kill her himself for some reason. So he wanted Ben to kill her for him. However, he couldn't just come out and ask Ben to do it, so he gives Ben just the right motivation to do so himself: removes his leg shackle, promised Ben he will be made leader of the island (even though MiB has no real plans to have a leader on the island), and leaves a rifle for Ben to use on Ilana. MiB put all the chess pieces in place, secure in the knowledge that his ultimate goal--the killing of Ilana--would be the end result. But Ben didn't follow through.

Now, of course that leaves the fact that Ilana actually DID end up dying lol...just not as MiB planned it.

Offline Holland34

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Re: Does someone need to be left behind?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 03:51:33 PM »
Well stated WhatThe!