Author Topic: Was Michael the MIB?  (Read 5024 times)

Offline opgelost

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2010, 04:38:47 PM »
First, let me say I think the answer is no. However, we know Locke has wanted and needed to get all the candidates together. Then Michael *poof* shows up and tells Hurley to 1) don't blow up the plane, and 2) march everyone over to Locke.

If it wasn't MIB (and I could think of a half dozen reasons why its not) then he sure as hell was doing exactly what MIB would have done.

Any thoughts?

I think it was Hurley's choice to go to MIB. He didn't do it because Michael told him.
Michael told him to not destroy the plane and later Hurley asks him if he knows where he can find Locke.
Hurley repeated twice to Jack that it was his idea.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2010, 09:07:58 PM »
First, let me say I think the answer is no. However, we know Locke has wanted and needed to get all the candidates together. Then Michael *poof* shows up and tells Hurley to 1) don't blow up the plane, and 2) march everyone over to Locke.

If it wasn't MIB (and I could think of a half dozen reasons why its not) then he sure as hell was doing exactly what MIB would have done.

Any thoughts?

I think it was Hurley's choice to go to MIB. He didn't do it because Michael told him.
Michael told him to not destroy the plane and later Hurley asks him if he knows where he can find Locke.
Hurley repeated twice to Jack that it was his idea.

Who stole OPG? ::)  I agree

Offline Madam P

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2010, 03:45:32 PM »
Besides every other person that is seen alive on the island after death (Alex, for example) has been the MIB so why should this be any different?

Huh?  How do we know that for sure?

We didn't hear the "Smoke Monster" noise before Michael showed up. We heard the whispers instead. So I'll vote "no" on Michael being MIB (or vise versa lol)

I'll go along with that.  No clickety-clack = no Smokie.  Whispers = something else... I'm not sure what yet.  But definitely not Smokie.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2010, 08:36:09 AM »
Michael visited Hurly because he made a deal with MiB to be able to "pass on" once everyone is off the island, Michael is still a douche looking out for whats best for him
I would not give MIB that much power.  If he had that ability, which in my mind he doesn't, then there would be no whisper.  MIB could have an island full of whispers descend on folks and get him home.


Offline WhatThe

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2010, 12:35:39 AM »
Honestly? This was one of the only times I really didn't like Hurley very much...he seemed arrogant in how he doubted anyone except him could or does receive instruction from Jacob:

ILANA: Jacob said Richard will know what to do. And Richard said to blow up the plane, correct?

RICHARD: Yes.

HURLEY: Well, Jacob never said anything about it to me. I mean... what if Richard's wrong?

If I were Ilana (or rather, if I were the writers lol), I would have said "Well, Jacob never said anything to me about following you, either. So why should we?"


Then he goes and lies to everyone about Jacob instructing him, with yet another arrogant stance taken:

HURLEY: I know what we need to do.

RICHARD: Really? What's that?

HURLEY: We have to go talk to Locke.

BEN: Are you trying to get us killed?

HURLEY: It's not my idea. It's his. [He points to nothing] Jacob says we have to talk to Locke.

RICHARD: Jacob's here right now?

HURLEY: Yeah.

RICHARD: Ask him what the island is.

HURLEY: What?

RICHARD: A while back, Jacob told me what the island was, and if he's really standing here right next to me, then just ask him.

HURLEY: I don't have to prove anything to you, Richard. You either come with me or you can keep trying to blow stuff up. Your call, dude.


Personally, I couldn't believe he had the gall to say that to Richard--Jacob's right hand man for over 200 years--right after lying about seeing and speaking to Jacob. That sounds far more like a Ben move than a Hurley move. "I didn't actually see or speak to Jacob but I'm gonna say I did just to get everyone to listen to me and follow me." The only thing that saved him in my eyes was that he admitted to Jack that he lied soon after.

Not to mention that it seemed rather established that Jacob wanted Ilana to follow Richard's instructions:

(Flashback)

ILANA: After I've brought them to the temple, what do I do?

JACOB: Ask Ricardus, he'll know what to do next.

(ON ISLAND)

HURLEY: Who's Ricardus?

ILANA: He is. So, Richard, what do we do next?

And then even Richard's dead wife chimes in through Hurley and instructs Richard to keep MIB from leaving the island:

(After talking to his dead wife through Hurley):

RICHARD: Is she gone?

HURLEY: Yeah.

RICHARD: Thank you.

HURLEY: Yeah, you got it.

RICHARD: Something wrong?

HURLEY: She kinda said one more thing. Something you have to do.

RICHARD: What?

HURLEY: She said you have to stop the Man in Black. You have to stop him from leaving the island. 'Cause if you don't... (English subtitles) We all go to hell.


Now obviously this is all gonna work out to show Hurley was right in his decisions...but I can't fathom why the show decided to show the audience in one episode that Richard plays a damn important part in everything, then in another episode have Hurley basically say "Screw Richard, don't listen to him"...and somehow for both of those to be correct lol.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2010, 07:40:01 AM »
I think they are showing what Jacob does to people.
He instructs them, people start to listen to them. That means power and power is nice. We saw that in Widmore and in Ben.
But Hurely is Hurley and "In a world of conflict and strife, there is but one fact we all can agree upon... everybody loves Hugo."
I think Hurley thought a little and saw that Jacob wasn't going to save everybody, that Jacob only cares about killing MIB and the candidate and while he cared of getting Jack away from the temple when Smoky was coming, he didn't care to save Ilana, the woman that saw him as her father, the woman that trained her whole life for Jacob. So Hurley decided to do the right thing instead of listening to Jacob, but was afraid that no one would listen to him if he would say it was his idea, so he used Jacob, because everybody seems to listen to Jacob, like Richard listened to Locke in 1954 when he said he was send by Jacob. But than Hurley started to doubt his own decision, because he always underestimates himself and because he is honest, so he told Jack the truth.
Hurley was not being arrogant and doubting that other people received orders from Jacob, he just decided that Jacob is wrong.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2010, 09:30:21 AM »
The point here is was Michael the man in Black and no he is not. (corrected thanks Madam P)
As for the choice Hurley made I don't think he wanted to tell anyone that Michael was the one that told him to stop MIB.  Richard is clueless in my eyes he lost faith and his complete common sense he once had. 

As for Hurley making his decision because he thinks Jacob is wrong, to me is pulling it out of thin air.  Agreed he uses Jacob as his crutch, but I don't see that his was his disbelief in Jacob.  I just think Jacob has done what he needed to do and move on in his next spiritual life.  If Jacob is to be seen again it will be on the island as the blone hair child with blood one him and various flash backs.

He SAVED the two people that he needed from the temple and that was Hurley and Jack.  If anything thos two are walking together and helpign each other.  I was thinking about this as I was on the treadmill yesterday and it dawned on me that both Hurley and Jack have qualities that place them in the "leadership" role.

Anyway we move on and new episode in two days and we get more answers
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 01:04:56 PM by LostinLock »

Offline Madam P

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2010, 12:06:41 PM »

The point here is was MIB the man in Black and no he is not.


Huh?  You lost me here...  Did you mean "Michael" instead of MIB?

I think they are showing what Jacob does to people.
He instructs them, people start to listen to them. That means power and power is nice. We saw that in Widmore and in Ben.


I don't know about the end of your post, opgelost -- but this beginning part made me think of something.  Back at the end of last season, when MIB and Jacob were talking on the beach, one word has always kinda stuck in the back of my mind and bothered me a little.  "Corrupt."  It didn't seem to ... I dunno... fit? with the rest of the train of thought maybe?  But in reading your post about power, what phrase immediately leaped to my mind?   "Power corrupts."   

MAN IN BLACK: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

JACOB: You are wrong.

MAN IN BLACK: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.


Power... maybe this whole conflict isn't about good vs. evil?  Maybe it's just an argrment about what power does to a person?  Candidates to be "in charge"... someone to be "leader"...  all about power, and what people will do to get it?  Hmmmm...

WhatThe, you had an interesting observation -- Hugo, for maybe the first time ever, wasn't really all that appealing there for awhile.  Give him a little power, and even lovable ol' Hurley becomes corrupted?  Could that be the point, and the dual-meaning behind "Everybody Loves Hugo"?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 12:10:05 PM by Madam P »

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2010, 01:06:48 PM »

The point here is was MIB the man in Black and no he is not.


Huh?  You lost me here...  Did you mean "Michael" instead of MIB?  Yes of course I did and you are never LOST  ;)

I think they are showing what Jacob does to people.
He instructs them, people start to listen to them. That means power and power is nice. We saw that in Widmore and in Ben.


I don't know about the end of your post, opgelost -- but this beginning part made me think of something.  Back at the end of last season, when MIB and Jacob were talking on the beach, one word has always kinda stuck in the back of my mind and bothered me a little.  "Corrupt."  It didn't seem to ... I dunno... fit? with the rest of the train of thought maybe?  But in reading your post about power, what phrase immediately leaped to my mind?   "Power corrupts."   

MAN IN BLACK: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

JACOB: You are wrong.

MAN IN BLACK: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.


Power... maybe this whole conflict isn't about good vs. evil?  Maybe it's just an argrment about what power does to a person?  Candidates to be "in charge"... someone to be "leader"...  all about power, and what people will do to get it?  Hmmmm...

WhatThe, you had an interesting observation -- Hugo, for maybe the first time ever, wasn't really all that appealing there for awhile.  Give him a little power, and even lovable ol' Hurley becomes corrupted?  Could that be the point, and the dual-meaning behind "Everybody Loves Hugo"?

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2010, 04:03:26 PM »
I think they are showing what Jacob does to people.
He instructs them, people start to listen to them. That means power and power is nice. We saw that in Widmore and in Ben.
But Hurely is Hurley and "In a world of conflict and strife, there is but one fact we all can agree upon... everybody loves Hugo."
I think Hurley thought a little and saw that Jacob wasn't going to save everybody, that Jacob only cares about killing MIB and the candidate and while he cared of getting Jack away from the temple when Smoky was coming, he didn't care to save Ilana, the woman that saw him as her father, the woman that trained her whole life for Jacob. So Hurley decided to do the right thing instead of listening to Jacob, but was afraid that no one would listen to him if he would say it was his idea, so he used Jacob, because everybody seems to listen to Jacob, like Richard listened to Locke in 1954 when he said he was send by Jacob. But than Hurley started to doubt his own decision, because he always underestimates himself and because he is honest, so he told Jack the truth.
Hurley was not being arrogant and doubting that other people received orders from Jacob, he just decided that Jacob is wrong.

Hurley would NEVER have gone to see MiB if he wasn't instructed that alot of people may die and it was going to be all his fault. You make some very large assumptions about all this stuff as per usual, and most it seems pretty wrong. I will reitterate that I am in no way saying that this is an all good/all evil struggle here. I think we are going to see shades of grey in these characters like we have in all other characters we have come to know from this series. I think it is quite funny how you seem to think Jacob should be some sort of super hero for these people who are on quests to redeem themselves. That's my theory du-joir today. Ilana trained her whole life for this...and she made a stupid error that got her killed. I'm sure that was listed in the Job Discription.

As for Michael and all. I don't think he was MiB or sent by MiB, although could be the latter there. I think Michael was warning Hurley that alot of people were going to die. I maintain that the warning was more general in nature, and not neccessarily directly related to the mission to blow up the plane. I think it was more of a forboding message that he should be very careful. In the meantime, Hurley take it to mean he should go talk to MiB. This is where the "Fault" lies because MiB wants them all dead. MiB nearly gets Oyster on his pants when the group arrives because now he has them all together so he can kill them. I say that Claire is going to be the one to carry out the assault on the Losties. She hasn't been up to as much as the other Zombie.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2010, 04:56:40 PM »
Opie makes a good point in that it was very un-Hurley like for him to lie about talking to Jacob. It really was something out of Ben's playbook. The only thing that redeemed him was revealing the truth to Jack later. It kind of reminded me of the nature of power corrupting in the way the One Ring did in Lord of the Rings. I'm not saying Hurley was like Gollum. What he did was more along the lines of Sam in that Sam took the Ring, but gave it back to Frodo. He overcame his desire for the Ring (power).

Hurley may have lied for what he believed were the right reasons, but the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Also, he really did take what Michael said without any sort on analysis. For example, imagine you are the pilot of the Enola Gay, and somebody from the future comes and says, "If you do this mission, alot of people are going to die." Well he may be right, but the alternative was going to be far worse. So, even though Michael may have been stating a fact, his conclusion may be flawed and the reprocussions of NOT destroying the plane could be far worse.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2010, 09:10:54 PM »
Hurley used Jacob to push his point.  He is not pulling a Ben, OMG, he is testing waters to do what he needed to get them to go and see Locke.

Michael is owned by the island he was sent by the island.  I know folks don't buy this but when the reveal of the island comes we will find out that this character has other things in mind which might not have anything to do with MIB!

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2010, 09:37:59 PM »
Hurley was not being arrogant and doubting that other people received orders from Jacob, he just decided that Jacob is wrong.

Well, he decided Jacob was right only when talking to HIM, though...

("Well, Jacob never said anything about it to me. I mean... what if Richard's wrong?")

Sounds more than a tad arrogant to me.

Plus, if what you're saying was indeed right, would that mean that if Jacob himself told Hurley "Do whatever Richard says, he knows what to do", that Hurley would still say "Nope, sorry, but you're wrong...Michael, the other dead guy I've been talking to, is right"?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 09:48:02 PM by WhatThe »

Offline shadow

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2010, 03:33:00 PM »
First, let me say I think the answer is no. However, we know Locke has wanted and needed to get all the candidates together. Then Michael *poof* shows up and tells Hurley to 1) don't blow up the plane, and 2) march everyone over to Locke.

If it wasn't MIB (and I could think of a half dozen reasons why its not) then he sure as hell was doing exactly what MIB would have done.

Any thoughts?

I am pretty sure that every time we been shown MIB manifesting as someone/something, it was a physical manifestation. That is, whatever/whomever it is, everyone can see it/touch it, because it is actually there.

When Hurley is talking to the dead, it has been shown, multiple times, that he is the only one that can see them.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Was Michael the MIB?
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2010, 05:25:17 PM »
Thats an excellent point, shadow. The more I read on this thread, and the more I think about it, the less I believe that Michael was MIB.

However, I still can't seem to shake the thought that he was working on behalf of MIB. How about something like this:
- We know that MIB is trapped on the Island.
- We have seen MIB take the form of people who had died on the Island.
- We were told the whispers are the souls of people trapped on the Island.
So, what if MIB was like the collector or master of the trapped souls on the Island, then he could exert some sort of control over them. I'm instantly reminded of the end of Season 2 when Michael lures Jack, Kate, Sawyer, & Hurley to the Others in order to escape with Walt.

He could be doing a nearly identicaly thing now luring the candidates to MIB.