Author Topic: Widmore is the good guy?  (Read 11486 times)

Offline BobBX542

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2010, 10:20:25 AM »
Did anybody besides me ever watch that show Reaper?  The guy who played the devil on that show was awesome!  Satan himself, and ever so charmingly smooth!  Was his name Ray Wise?  He'd have made a great Widmore.

No, that's why it got cancelled. LOL

Offline Shmokin17

  • Onlooker
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2010, 12:10:12 PM »
I say Widmore has a purpose and it isn't to make himself richer or become king of the island.  His purpose is greater than he is and Desmond is a tool to be used for that purpose.  If he gets sacrificed in reaching the goal, that is a necessary loss.  Cold, but that's the way I think they are going.


I agree that desmond is a tool (in the kindest sense of the term) and I also think Widmore is a tool/pawn too, just a little bit further up the hierachy.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2010, 12:29:10 PM »
Maybe I'm watching a different show, but Widmore still seems villainous to me.  He didn't seem to care about Desmond at all except to use him for an experiment, which could've killed him for all he knew.  And don't forget the mercs weren't sent to kill Ben.  They were sent to capture him.  But they WERE sent to kill everyone else on the island.  Maybe he has some greater good motive, but as far as I can tell, he has a selfish agenda.  The fact that he wants to "destroy" MIB or whatever he plans to do isn't for the good of the island but to remove his greatest threat at controlling the island.  I sure wouldn't want an invincible pissed off smoke monster roaming around if I was taking over the island.

As far the person who Jacob was trying to help get to the island, it could be Desmond rather than Widmore.

I could be mistaken about this, but I believe wiping everyone out on the island was a Secondary Protocol. And that could have been a last ditch effort for keeping MiB from working his loophole.

Could have been Des he was trying to get to the island, or I got a curve here for you. What if it was....Zoe! Yeah that's right I said it. I have a feeling she is going to play quite a large part in this story from here on out.

Offline BobBX542

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2010, 12:53:27 PM »
This might be a moot question, but then again, when does anything on here not start a debate?? BUT, do we now all agree that Widmore and his people were who Jacob was referring to when he said, "They're coming" to Locke in the S5 finale?? If so, that would probably mean that Widmore and friends are allies of Jacob, and if that's the case, then Widmore is a good guy, no?? At least for those of us that believe that Jacob is the good one, and MIB the bad.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2010, 01:00:04 PM »
Agreed. Although I am pretty sure someone will disagree. MiB's face after Jacob said that was pretty telling of the fact that it kind of threw a wrench in his plans.

Offline Madam P

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1353
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2010, 01:13:33 PM »
Did anybody besides me ever watch that show Reaper?  The guy who played the devil on that show was awesome!  Satan himself, and ever so charmingly smooth!  Was his name Ray Wise?  He'd have made a great Widmore.

No, that's why it got cancelled. LOL

True that.  Pretty lame show, although it had some bright spots.  I loved that the gateway to Hell was through a Dept. of Motor Vehicles office -- tee-hee.  And as noted, Satan rocked.

Offline Madam P

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1353
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2010, 01:23:52 PM »

...I was going to ask for a screencap of Eloise when she gets pissed at Desmond because I told my wife that she gets such an evil look in her eyes, they almost look like they're turning black.  The screencap posted already shows Eloise while they're talking cordially, so I went to ABC.com and watched the scene again and for some reason, I didn't notice anything strange this time.  I was going to say that maybe they play a re-touched version when it airs, but the online video isn't re-touched, but then I thought that sounded stupid...

You're not crazy -- I noticed that too.  In fact, I think I noticed it especially because I thought "Wow, Eloise's eyes look just like Widmore's eyes there!" because I've been noticing the deal with Widmore's eyes sporadically for a couple episodes now.  It made me toy briefly with the idea of some sort of Incredible Hulk-type deal going on -- when they get angry, their eyes turn black... black=Smokey...  when Flocke gets angry he turns into Smokey...   But then it got too complicated and I bagged the whole idea.   Still, though, I think those black-looking eyes seem creepy.

Offline Madam P

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1353
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2010, 01:32:47 PM »
This might be a moot question, but then again, when does anything on here not start a debate?? BUT, do we now all agree that Widmore and his people were who Jacob was referring to when he said, "They're coming" to Locke in the S5 finale?? If so, that would probably mean that Widmore and friends are allies of Jacob, and if that's the case, then Widmore is a good guy, no?? At least for those of us that believe that Jacob is the good one, and MIB the bad.

I think I'm about 85% in the boat of thinking that Widmore & Co. was the referenced "they're coming."  I think there's still a slight possibility he could've meant "the rest of the candidates" -- as in "Don't think you've won just yet, because my replacements are still on their way."  But I think it would be more fun if "they're coming" was kind of a warning to MIB.  I almost think that, in some way, Jacob and MIB are a little bit on the same side, in the sense that they are both tied to the "mystical/faith" properties of the island.  I get the feeling that Widmore & Co. are somehow trying to exploit the "science" side of the island.  If that is the case, then perhaps Widmore would be a threat to both Jacob AND the Man In Black.  I dunno, just a thought.

Offline CaseyMac

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2010, 02:40:42 PM »
Maybe it's just me, but after the first few boatloads, you gotta give some of the blame to Jacob on this one. And even if he didn't literally down Oceanic 815, Jacob stacked that manifest with candidates for a reason, and it's not because he thought they'd have a smooth flight to LAX.

You make a good point, but there is another part of that Richard/Jacob conversation that is even more important.

JACOB: Because I wanted them to help themselves. To know the difference between right and wrong without me having to tell them. It's all meaningless if I have to force them to do anything. Why should I have to step in?

RICHARD: If you don't, he will.

If the people are dying on the Island, but Jacob had a completely hands off approach, then it seems hard to put the blame on him. There must be a certain level of self-responsiblity. Also it raises the possiblity of MIB actually having a hand in their deathes if he was the one interfering.

As far as Jacob "stacking the flight", once again I ask how much responsiblity can we really place on Jacob. Yes, he seems to step in front of the Losties' choices, but he didn't "put" them on the flight. Jack was there to bring his father back, Hurley was there after trying to find out about the numbers, Kate was caught by the cops, Sawyer was deported for headbutting an Aussie official, etc. Obviously Jacob admits to bringing them there, but the big question is "how". Clearly each step along the way was a result of free-will choices, but Jacob must have an some influence somewhere in the chain of events.

Offline RM

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 507
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2010, 03:51:10 AM »
I don't quite see Widmore as "a good guy".  In fact, I think he will ultimately be at cross purposes with Desmond.  Desmond has just seen the X timeline where everyone is safe and alive and he can use his consciousness of the original timeline to course-correct their lives so that they reconnect with the people they are "supposed to" be with.

But I think the way to create the X timeline is to destroy the original one.  Widmore seems to want to prevent the destruction of the original timeline whereas I think Desmond will use his knowledge of the X timeline convince everyone that they are better off.  He may even be able to "expose" them to his presence and let them actually switch consciousnesses into the X timeline to "see for themselves" an existence where everything is better off.

The question for me remains the same dilemma as The Incident -- how do you know which action in the original timeline will lead to the result that you want (i.e., the creation of the X timeline)?

Offline CaseyMac

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2010, 05:56:51 AM »
This might be a moot question, but then again, when does anything on here not start a debate?? BUT, do we now all agree that Widmore and his people were who Jacob was referring to when he said, "They're coming" to Locke in the S5 finale?? If so, that would probably mean that Widmore and friends are allies of Jacob, and if that's the case, then Widmore is a good guy, no?? At least for those of us that believe that Jacob is the good one, and MIB the bad.

Nope, I'm going to pee in the punchbowl and disagree. I believe Jacob was talking about the 1977 crew coming back after the Incident when he said "They're coming." Because the scene immediately after that was the Incident. Shephard, Ford, Reyes, Kwon, Jarrah, Austin, etc...lots of candidates there.

Offline opgelost

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1826
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2010, 08:27:46 AM »
A good guy would have gone to Desmond in the hospital and told him that he needed him to save the world
and explain him how and why and than let the choice to go to the island or let everybody die to Desmond.
Someone who takes Desmond out of the hospital, drugs him, force him to the island, force him in the cabin and
binds him in a chair is not a good guy.

There is no good reason in the world to justify that. Not a vague concept of evil, not the world exploding.
Widmore is just a bad guy.

Offline Shmokin17

  • Onlooker
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2010, 11:18:27 AM »

Someone who takes Desmond out of the hospital, drugs him, force him to the island, force him in the cabin and
binds him in a chair is not a good guy.

There is no good reason in the world to justify that. Not a vague concept of evil, not the world exploding.
Widmore is just a bad guy.

I'm sorry to disagree, your possibly right about widmore being evil, I just don't think you can judge evilness based on the actions that widmore has taken.
For instance if desmond was in our world and he committed atrocious crimes against countries are you trying to say that good guys won't take the sort of action that widmore has done in order to capture him? If we had to and there was no other way of capture and we took that action, would you call that evil too? Who knows what sort of actions were taken to capture Saddam Hussein, was that evil? What about Osbama bin Laden? How could a good guy capture him without appearing evil? (I predict that these are very interesting thoughts that could spark debate)

If you call that evil and I took that thinking along with my current thinking I would be saying that the majority of people on our world are evil because of some of the things that go on. Thankfully for some I don't think that way.

I also have a slightly longer comment I have written to go on this page regarding RM's comment which I agree with.. Desmond changing from a pawn to king with the power of knowledge.

Offline opgelost

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1826
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2010, 01:44:00 PM »
Ok, just tell me why you think Sadam Hoessein and Bin Laden are evil and need to be captured and we
can start a nice discussion about Jacob.

You say that Widmore's actions would be justified if Desmond was evil. What is evil?
We saw Desmond in both universes and to me he doesn't seem evil at all.
Maybe in one of the infinite universes he could be evil, is that a good motivation to arrest him in this one?



Offline Shmokin17

  • Onlooker
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Widmore is the good guy?
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2010, 03:14:48 PM »
Ok, just tell me why you think Sadam Hoessein and Bin Laden are evil and need to be captured and we
can start a nice discussion about Jacob.

You say that Widmore's actions would be justified if Desmond was evil. What is evil?
We saw Desmond in both universes and to me he doesn't seem evil at all.
Maybe in one of the infinite universes he could be evil, is that a good motivation to arrest him in this one?




The reference to the other individuals were simply highlighting the fact that there are individuals out there that are hunted, and to capture them may require more than the reasonable force. In doing so is one committing an evil act and therefore branded a bad person? We know the purpose of these from the western point of view and it is generally felt it is for the better from that point of view.

Ah I think you may have misunderstood my reference to Desmond and him being evil in our world. My point here was to in fact question whether YOU THINK that widmore's action's would be justified on an evil person. I, along with many others, think that widmore's actions are questionable simply because they are inflicted on our favourite character Desmond, that is the only information we have on what he is doing (or maybe I have missed something). He is "abusing" our dear desmond. But for what purpose we really do not know and that is why I find it difficult to judge whether he is good or bad.

Evil is most certainly out there in different forms and some are masked in the cloak of good. If this is the case then I think it is possible for goodness to be masked in the cloak of evil, which could be what we are seeing in widmore. Ok I admit it is unlikely but there is certainly the chance of it by my reckoning.