Author Topic: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...  (Read 4366 times)

Offline MachThree

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Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« on: April 07, 2010, 03:04:56 PM »
Widmore told Desmond that the Island isn't through with him yet.  We know if the island isn't through with you, it won't let you die.  Surely Widmore with all of his island knowledge must know this as well???  So testing Desmond to see if he can survive another "catastrophic electro mangnetic event" doesn't make sense, does it?  There's no way he can die until the island is through with him.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 03:11:48 PM »
Thats not necessarily accurate I believe. Take the dynomite russian roulette scene with Jack and Alpert. Now, if Jack would have left, I believe that the dynomite would have gone off and Alpert would have been turned into Artz stew. Since he stayed, and if you are chosen/special, then you can't kill yourself and thats why the dynomite didn't go off.

So, I think anyone can die, Desmond included. So, they ran a test on Desmond to see if he would survive whatever the hell Widmore has planned. If they had to do a test first, it would be my guess that they only have 1 shot to get it right. So, kind of like a space shuttle launch, you want to test all the components so that when you do the countdown, you are as certain as you possible can be that everything will work and nothing will fail, because you only get 1 chance.

Offline jodeci

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 03:13:35 PM »
i think widmore knows des can't die yet, but wanted to test his abilities and how much des actually 'knows' about both universes.  besides, before the test, des was not willing to help charles, but when the test was done, des was all ok, lets go, what do you want me to do.  so maybe widmore was also trying to show des another outcome

Offline CastawayCayley

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 04:13:02 PM »
yeah, I don't think that was a test of his mortality, I think it was a test to see if he could recreate the effects of the hatch implosion.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 04:27:47 PM »
Well, to attempt an answer at the original post, if Widmore knows about the whole not being able to be killed thing, then this test was absolutely 100% necesarry. In fact, it was a two bird one stone thing. BECAUSE Desmond didn't die in the electro magnetic "chamber" (fancy word for a plywood box, but whatever) then that tells Widmore that the island isn't done with Desmond yet, AND that he can survive the event that is coming, which, for some reason Widmore knows is going to be an electro magnetic event.

Offline MachThree

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 05:42:21 PM »
Thats not necessarily accurate I believe. Take the dynomite russian roulette scene with Jack and Alpert. Now, if Jack would have left, I believe that the dynomite would have gone off and Alpert would have been turned into Artz stew. Since he stayed, and if you are chosen/special, then you can't kill yourself and thats why the dynomite didn't go off.

Well, ok, certainly we've seen many examples of those that the island isn't done with not being able to kill themselves - Michael with the revolver, Jack on the bridge.  But we've also seen examples of them not being able to be killed by other people besides themselves - i.e. Keamy tries to kill Michael, his gun jams.  So I'm not necessarily sure that Richard would have gone kaboom if Jack had left  simply because Jack lit the dynamite for him. 

And whatever the reason for his beliefs, Richard also believed that he wouldn't be able to kill himself, though I don't think we've seen any evidence that he had ever tried before he asked Jack to do it for him. 

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2010, 05:54:24 PM »
Thats not necessarily accurate I believe. Take the dynomite russian roulette scene with Jack and Alpert. Now, if Jack would have left, I believe that the dynomite would have gone off and Alpert would have been turned into Artz stew. Since he stayed, and if you are chosen/special, then you can't kill yourself and thats why the dynomite didn't go off.

Well, ok, certainly we've seen many examples of those that the island isn't done with not being able to kill themselves - Michael with the revolver, Jack on the bridge.  But we've also seen examples of them not being able to be killed by other people besides themselves - i.e. Keamy tries to kill Michael, his gun jams.  So I'm not necessarily sure that Richard would have gone kaboom if Jack had left  simply because Jack lit the dynamite for him. 

And whatever the reason for his beliefs, Richard also believed that he wouldn't be able to kill himself, though I don't think we've seen any evidence that he had ever tried before he asked Jack to do it for him. 

I really hope you don't take this the wrong way, because it's not really directed at you and I'll explain. But I kinda hope you are wrong.

If they simply can't die at all, then you are right, the dynomite wouldn't have blown whether or not Jack was there. That scene, for me, was one of the most intense and suspensful scenes I've watched. It showed Jack that he indeed was special, and even though he believed it, believing something and seeing something are 2 different things. (paraphrased from Ben) Basically, if Jack is normal, the dynomite blows, but if he is special, then some miracle will happen and it won't blow. Very cool stuff.

So if the dynomite wasn't going to blow either way, it kind of takes the fun and suspense out of that whole scene.

Offline MachThree

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2010, 08:26:27 PM »
Thats not necessarily accurate I believe. Take the dynomite russian roulette scene with Jack and Alpert. Now, if Jack would have left, I believe that the dynomite would have gone off and Alpert would have been turned into Artz stew. Since he stayed, and if you are chosen/special, then you can't kill yourself and thats why the dynomite didn't go off.

Well, ok, certainly we've seen many examples of those that the island isn't done with not being able to kill themselves - Michael with the revolver, Jack on the bridge.  But we've also seen examples of them not being able to be killed by other people besides themselves - i.e. Keamy tries to kill Michael, his gun jams.  So I'm not necessarily sure that Richard would have gone kaboom if Jack had left  simply because Jack lit the dynamite for him. 

And whatever the reason for his beliefs, Richard also believed that he wouldn't be able to kill himself, though I don't think we've seen any evidence that he had ever tried before he asked Jack to do it for him. 

I really hope you don't take this the wrong way, because it's not really directed at you and I'll explain. But I kinda hope you are wrong.

If they simply can't die at all, then you are right, the dynomite wouldn't have blown whether or not Jack was there. That scene, for me, was one of the most intense and suspensful scenes I've watched. It showed Jack that he indeed was special, and even though he believed it, believing something and seeing something are 2 different things. (paraphrased from Ben) Basically, if Jack is normal, the dynomite blows, but if he is special, then some miracle will happen and it won't blow. Very cool stuff.

So if the dynomite wasn't going to blow either way, it kind of takes the fun and suspense out of that whole scene.

I agree, that scene was very intense for all the reasons you mentioned.  And as far as it loosing suspense if they couldn't die, I disagree in the sense that at the time, Jack suspected he couldn't die but didn't know it for sure, neither did the audience, nor did Richard even. 

For me, that scene is probably the key moment (along with the lighthouse scene) in Jack's journey and development as a character.  No man of science would have ever lit that stick of dynamite and stuck around.  That took faith, and lots of it.  Of course, so did trying to detonate Jughead - but the whole idea behind Jughead was just that - a theory/idea from Farraday.  No matter how cooky it sounded, it was still just an idea, no divinity, nothing that couldn't be explained through logic.  So even though back in 1977 Jack was clearly giving up on science and switching to faith, he didn't have anything to latch his new found faith to.  But the lighthouse gave him that I think - something he could have faith in and something at the same time that could not be explained away by science.

Offline jamesl

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 12:32:50 AM »
I just rewatched the episode and while Widmore does say "the island isn't through with you yet" he also says "if everything I've heard about you is true"

so Widmore doesn't have any direct knowledge of Desmond being special and I have no idea who would have told him about Desmond and the failsafe key, but I don't think Widmore is 100% sure at that time that Des is "The One"

so he has to do the test just to be positive

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 03:34:03 PM »
The part of the test that I think doesn't make sense is he brought Des and the EM box to the island to test Des. Why not test him off island? Surely Widmore has access to a generator that could make the power required to run the box. Do Des' unique abilities only apply when on the island?

Offline opgelost

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 03:37:31 PM »
No, but there is no law on the island to stop him.

Offline zeekloveslost

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 05:31:36 PM »
I have this feeling that Widmore was sent to do his mission on the island by Eloise, who came up with the very detailed time line (perhaps because she knows what will happen).  But since Charles had Desmond in the box ahead of schedule, Des did his jump to the Alt timeline early, hence Eloise tells him that he's not ready YET.

Does anyone buy that?

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2010, 11:44:35 PM »
I have this feeling that Widmore was sent to do his mission on the island by Eloise, who came up with the very detailed time line (perhaps because she knows what will happen).  But since Charles had Desmond in the box ahead of schedule, Des did his jump to the Alt timeline early, hence Eloise tells him that he's not ready YET.

Does anyone buy that?

It could make sense.

Offline bfth

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 09:31:06 AM »
Yea, I could buy that one. (How much do you want for it?)

Offline RM

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Re: Widmore's Test of Des didn't make sense...
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 03:38:43 AM »
I don't think Widmore necessarily knows absolutely everything.  I don't think he knew that by exposing Desmond to that much EM energy that he was sending his consciousness to an alternate reality.  That's different than anything Daniel had been saying (i.e., just going back and forth inside your own lifetime inside the same timeline).

In fact, I think Widmore wants to prevent the destruction of the original timeline whereas Desmond now knows there is an alternate one where everyone is safe and alive and they can be guided towards being with the people they are "supposed to" be with.  At this point, I think Desmond will actually talk the Losties into sacrificing themselves and the original timeline completely because he knows it will bring about the X timeline where everyone will eventually live happily ever after.