Author Topic: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?  (Read 2556 times)

Offline on the island

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Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« on: April 07, 2010, 11:01:17 AM »
He seemed to be trying to convince Desmond how much better off he was without any attachments (wife, kids).  He seems to know everything on the island - are he and Eloise controlling this ATL? 

Offline RM

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 12:17:14 PM »
Well, she is for sure.  And I guess I'd have to say he is.  They both know how singularly important Desmond is.  So Charles makes him his right-hand man and keeps a close eye on everything about him, makes sure he has no attachments and doesn't even know about Penny.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 12:20:48 PM »
Yeah this would make sense. Des knew about Daniel and Mrs. Widmore very well, but was unaware Penny even existed. Very likely that was intentional on Widmore's part. Also, anyone notice the matching "Scale" pictures in Widmore's office? One with a black frame and one with a white frame. On opposing sides of the office. Clearly knows something about the island. Also could be a tip of the hat that the balance is still in tact.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 12:51:01 PM »
I think he deffinitely knows what's up. He didn't seem to know anything about the island until we all knew he was the leader of the others, then it was game on. So he's probably "playing dumb" for the moment. I mean when you look at it, Eloise was sort of playing the same role she played the last time Desmond went through the magnetic field and was sent through time. She may not have given him a lecture about course correction and what have you this time around, but she deffinitely knows that he was doing something he wasn't suppossed to.

Offline nomteticus

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 05:56:27 PM »
We're not sure the others even exist in the ATL since Jacob may not exist. So how come Eloise knows so much about the timelines and about Desmond's mission? And I'm still puzzled as to how in the hell she knew to be in that jewelery store the exact same time as Desmond and that the man was going to die back in "Flashes before your eyes". Eloise Hawking seems more and more like a plot device than a character.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 06:26:40 PM »
We're not sure the others even exist in the ATL since Jacob may not exist. So how come Eloise knows so much about the timelines and about Desmond's mission? And I'm still puzzled as to how in the hell she knew to be in that jewelery store the exact same time as Desmond and that the man was going to die back in "Flashes before your eyes". Eloise Hawking seems more and more like a plot device than a character.

Well that would fit, every series has a deus ex machina. Sometimes you just need that person/thing to make it all work.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 09:56:53 AM »
Ahhhh finally the thread that allows me to dump the thoughts.

Let us head back to the Variable and the conversation that had lingered in my mind since:
PENNY: Daniel Faraday? Your son is Daniel Faraday?

MS. HAWKING: [Whispers] yes.

PENNY: That's the man who sent Desmond to Los Angeles to find you.

MS. HAWKING: That's right. I came, Penelope, to apologize. Your husband has become a casualty in a conflict that's bigger than him, that's bigger than any of us.

PENNY: What do you mean? Is Des gonna be okay?

MS. HAWKING: I don't know. For the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen next.
 
further along

WIDMORE: Is he all right?

MS. HAWKING: Yes, Charles. He's fine.

WIDMORE: Good.

MS. HAWKING: Your daughter's in there. Why don't you go in and say hello?

WIDMORE: Unfortunately, Eloise, my relationship with Penelope is one of the things I had to sacrifice.

MS. HAWKING: Sacrifice? Don't you talk to me about sacrifice, Charles. I had to send my son back to the Island, knowing full well that--

WIDMORE: He was my son, too, Eloise.

[Ms. Hawking slaps Widmore.]

[Engine starts]

[Car door closes]


----earlier in the 70's

RICHARD: Why did you do that?

ELOISE: He had a gun on you.

RICHARD: He wasn't gonna shoot me, Eloise.

FARADAY: Eloise. [Gasping] You knew. You always knew. [Panting] You knew this was gonna happen. You sent me here anyway.

ELOISE: Who are you?

FARADAY: I... I'm your son. [Gasps]


Basically Ms. Hawking came to us as a casual character but obviously has her nose in many things.
We find her posed with the Monk in a photo on his desk, the same place where Desmond happens to meet Penny.  She also tells Desmond he is not suppose to buy the ring because he is not suppose to marry her, at that time, we will assume, but perhaps he was not suppose to marry her at all.

Unfortunately I will disagree with myself because this particular episode, which reminds me of the Constant, it was obvious that Penny was meant to be in Desmond’s life.  And they had to bring him back to the reality that his life was much better off with her in it.

But I digress this has to do with Charles and Ellie.  Both of these characters know the island and they know the island well.  Keep in mind they do not dwell on anything of Jacob or MIB or any of that lore. As a matter of fact Charles, in the package refers to MIB as a “combination of myth, ghost stories, and jungle noises in the night.”  But he knows more because MIB refers to the pylons and why would they be there if Charles wasn’t savvy about MIB.  Charles entire reaction to MIB was more of an annoyance than a threat to his current plan. 
MIB is threatened by Charles being there and if you remember when Charles met John Locke in the hospital bed he said he didn’t know that Locke would have to die.  But he knew a war was coming.
So this is where I guess I get a bit perplexed, I believe the Charles and Ellie are very aware of what was to happen to a certain point.  Her killing her own son was to stop him from perhaps setting off Jughead. 
For now Charles has to somehow reverse this action and by doing so they need Desmond to complete this.
So we have Desmond, who was not on the original flight, but now flying with our Losties in the “what would happen if they didn’t crash time line”.  He first meets Jack (yes read into that again) and then disappears.  But his working for Charles and being tasked with watching Charlie was not mere coincidence it was purposeful.  Charles couldn’t take Desmond and say hey fellow you need to be with my daughter, as much as I think you are a worthless person, you have a purpose but it is for something I need to have done in my life.  It wouldn’t work given their real life relationship and Eloise was so perfect in her meeting Desmond. I was waiting for her to take off that mask and give it him straight and she did when he pushed on about Penny. 
Both Charles and Ellie have a larger role and it has been interesting how their roles in this conundrum have been released like the electromagnetic energy that typing in the numbers every 108 minutes!  Slowly but with purpose.
I still hold to the fact that Ellie and Charles both had something to do with Dharma being there.  Charles was livid in the 50’s when Locke came by and said he was future leader.  Young arrogant Charles knew the island; he also told Ben it would be his again.


Additionally I keep thinking we are missing the other character in this story and that is the island.  The island that MIB insists does not need protecting. 
(Excuse my moving from point to point, I write this as the thoughts enter my head because this was an episode that I had been waiting for)
Even if I am 100% wrong about how I perceive this, I still find this episode right up there with the Constant and is connected to the Variable.



There was also a conversation with Richard that describes the Charles/Eloise relationship as a different. 


Offline Madam P

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2010, 01:34:36 PM »
Good summation, LostInLock.  I can't find anything in there to disagree with.  (And why is it that my first thought upon finishing reading that is "So Charles and Ellie must be Adam and Eve!"  LOL.) 

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 09:03:20 PM »
Good summation, LostInLock.  I can't find anything in there to disagree with.  (And why is it that my first thought upon finishing reading that is "So Charles and Ellie must be Adam and Eve!"  LOL.) 

Thank you Madam P - Yes, I have that thought in my mind.  I almost wrote that but didn't want to go down a rat hole.
I just have a feeling about these two and what I can validate I do, but they have connections to way to many things on this island.  I think I also felt bad for Daniel, totally off subject here, but Daniel was their son.  He didn't know his Dad he was brilliant in math and music and his life was truly a sacrafice for the island.

Such a travesty but necessary for the plot to move along

Offline LouE68

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Re: Does Widmore know as much as Eloise in ATL?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 12:19:31 AM »
In answwer to the title of the thread...no and yes...Charles seems to have a gut instinct for what has to be done...Eloise seems to as she said, "I just know..." Apparently the island granted her certain abilities....