Author Topic: IF Widmore is a good guy.....  (Read 1685 times)

Offline mushermellon

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IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« on: April 03, 2010, 01:57:56 AM »
why would he want Ben to kill baby Alex (as shown in episode whatever)

Offline WhatThe

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010, 03:53:47 AM »
I think Jacob is the only truly "good" guy. MIB and Widmore are on different sides of "bad" lol.

Offline opgelost

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010, 09:33:24 AM »
Because he is not a good guy.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 09:47:23 AM »
why would he want Ben to kill baby Alex (as shown in episode whatever)

Remember Dogen wanted to kill the losties. I just think that they and this is not drawing from anything other than my own personal observations, that they do not need a lot of "new" people on the island.  If Jacob doesn't have them on the list then they are superfluous.  This was not on the show but in the extras on the DVD's and I believe Juggy posted the truce which indicated only so many DI folks could be on the island and it had to match the "others".  Again not factual on this but close I think.

So, in the end Widmore being good or bad, well I am not sure about him.  He brings up the island, not Jacob or MIB, and he falls into my thinking that the island, as a character, still holds the answers to many things.  I sort of went out about this in another thread about technology and MIB and Jacob.
But anyway as with all of these characters they have their good and bad in them.  It is just how much they turn it up.    Widmore wants the island and his entire attitude towards MIB was well indignant.  As if MIB was not his challenge as much as he had other issues to deal with. 

So his wanting to rid the island of Alex was purely one of survival and the island didn't need her.  And oddly enough she eventually did die, indirectly by his hands.

And by all means I do not condone his actions, but the for sake of this show they fit and it works and I love the Widmore character.  I think he has some answers and I would love to chat with him by the fireside with a glass of McCutcheon and hear his tales of island life.

Offline MachThree

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 10:10:26 PM »
I think there are a very limited number of "good guys" on the island, and neither MiB, nor Jacob, nor Widmore are among them.  I think the only good guys left are a very limited number of the original 815'ers - Jack, Hurley, maybe Sun.  I'd count Rose and Bernard in among them if I thought they were even still part of the show.  Maybe, and its a big maybe, Ilana.  Possibly Frank Lapidus.  Desmond.  I think among the main players who are still alive, these are the only ones who have thus far not shown any evil streak - committed crimes, killed people, etc.

Pretty much everyone else has - Richard killed the soldiers, Sawyer killed the fake Cooper and the real Cooper, Kate killed her dad, Sayid killed several at Ben's behest, a few more when he broke Nadia out of jail etc.  Claire killed the Other.  Locke is dead, and we all know what MiB has done.  Widmore sent the Mercs.  Ben had no problem setting off the freighter bomb, or getting Alex killed.  Miles went around scaming relatives of the dead for their money.   Jack, however misguided he might have been at times, never directly did anything evil.  Nor Hurley.  I don't think Frank has either.  Desmond killed Kelvin by accident.     

Offline opgelost

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 06:35:45 AM »
Jack killed Shannon's father by choosing to save Sarah, he indirectly killed his own father. He also tried to shoot Locke, but the gun didn't work. Hurley thinks he killed the people in the elevator with his weight and used the Dharmavan to kill others, I think Sun killed her lover and she killed the other in the submarine, shooting her (Colleen if I remember well).
Bernard was one of the shooters when the others came to take the pregnant women.
Desmond shot Mikhail in the water in the looking glass, even if he didn't kill him, it was his purpose to kill him.

If you take killing someone as the guideline for being bad, in this show nobody is good.
The question is when is it justified to kill.
As selfdefence? To save somebody? To give everybody their freedom back? To save the island? To protect the world from evil?
When somebody takes your son? Never? In a war? To protect an ideology? For the greater good? If somebody was allready hanging himself?
Why can we accept the killing some of them did and not the killing others did?
Everybody blames Michael for killing to save Walt, but nobody blames Desmond for shooting Mikhail to save Charlie or Sun for shooting Colleen to save herself. Everybody blames MIB for killing to save himself and (as I believe) all the people who died and all the ones trapped on the island.
Did Michael kill the good people and Desmond and Sun the bad ones? Is it good to kill bad people and bad to kill good people?
Again we will first have to define what is good and what is evil.

And again that is why I hate Jacob, because he decides that MIB is evil and he is good. According to what standards?

Offline MachThree

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 01:57:24 PM »
Maybe its just what's in the person's heart when they did the deed.  Desmond didn't mean to kill Kelvin.  Michael certainly meant to kill Libby and Anna, even if for (to him) "good" reasons. 

I forgot that Jack tried to kill Locke.  As to Jack "killing" Shanon's dad, I don't buy that.  Jack was placed in a situation where he'd either "kill" Sarah or Shanon's dad.  He didn't let Shanon's dad die out of some evilness in his heart.  He could only save one or the other. 

Interestingly, I think Locke never killed or tried to kill anyone, even when he had the chance - i.e. he let Eddie go (the cop at the Marajuana collective), and he couldn't kill cooper himself when he had the chance to.   

Offline opgelost

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 09:22:46 AM »
Maybe its just what's in the person's heart when they did the deed.  Desmond didn't mean to kill Kelvin.  Michael certainly meant to kill Libby and Anna, even if for (to him) "good" reasons. 

I forgot that Jack tried to kill Locke.  As to Jack "killing" Shanon's dad, I don't buy that.  Jack was placed in a situation where he'd either "kill" Sarah or Shanon's dad.  He didn't let Shanon's dad die out of some evilness in his heart.  He could only save one or the other. 

Interestingly, I think Locke never killed or tried to kill anyone, even when he had the chance - i.e. he let Eddie go (the cop at the Marajuana collective), and he couldn't kill cooper himself when he had the chance to.   

He could only save one or the other. That's the whole point. He wasn't good for Shannon, but he was good for Sarah. Lost is about choises. I think Jack will have to make that decision again - MIB or Jacob - the sidetimeline or the islandtimeline - his son or the island. His father told him to never choose, because he didn't have what it takes. But Jack is the one that always has to choose.

Locke nailed a knife in Naomi's back.

I don't think Michael meant or planned to kill Libby, she just came in there and I don't think he had something different in his heart than Sayid when he killed to free Nadia or Eko when he killed to save his brother or Desmond when he shot to protect Charlie. The difference is that we liked Libby, because they introduced her as a nice person and we don't give a thing about the Iraqi soldier, the old Nigerian man or Mikhail.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 09:18:35 PM »
Widmore is there for the island.  If you caught any of his drift he has a purpose right now and that is to course correct what his son did.

Again, I cannot repeat this enough, yes it is about choices, but there is good and bad in all of us.  It is to the degree that is it manifested in a person.
Jack had to weigh the facts before he moved one way over another. If shannon's dad had a 5% of survival and Sarah had a 60% he made the right choice.  Based on what he was taught and yes choice.

So again there is black and white in all of us. 

I think Widmore is there for a greater good and his methods of achieving that may not place him in a good light but if he achieves making all right again well he is a hero in my eyes. 


Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 12:55:20 PM »
Jack killed Shannon's father by choosing to save Sarah, he indirectly killed his own father. He also tried to shoot Locke, but the gun didn't work. Hurley thinks he killed the people in the elevator with his weight and used the Dharmavan to kill others, I think Sun killed her lover Her lover killed himself. No fault on sun thereand she killed the other in the submarine, shooting her (Colleen if I remember well).
Bernard was one of the shooters when the others came to take the pregnant women.
Desmond shot Mikhail in the water in the looking glass, even if he didn't kill him, it was his purpose to kill him.

If you take killing someone as the guideline for being bad, in this show nobody is good.
The question is when is it justified to kill.
As selfdefence? To save somebody? To give everybody their freedom back? To save the island? To protect the world from evil?
When somebody takes your son? Never? In a war? To protect an ideology? For the greater good? If somebody was allready hanging himself?
Why can we accept the killing some of them did and not the killing others did?
Everybody blames Michael for killing to save Walt, but nobody blames Desmond for shooting Mikhail to save Charlie or Sun for shooting Colleen to save herself. Everybody blames MIB for killing to save himself and (as I believe) all the people who died and all the ones trapped on the island.
Did Michael kill the good people and Desmond and Sun the bad ones? Is it good to kill bad people and bad to kill good people?
Again we will first have to define what is good and what is evil.

And again that is why I hate Jacob, because he decides that MIB is evil and he is good. According to what standards?


Again at the defense of my boy Mark Pellegrino here. Jacob is not deciding someone is evil. He considers everyone who comes to the island as having a clean slate. MiB made his own bed in a way we have yet seen. If anyone on this show is judging anyone its MiB. He judges whether or not they will be of use to him and goes from there. Again I think he is using all the people he has with him to get all the Candidates into the same area and exterminate them all. I think the whole dynamite scene with Richard and Jack was a hint. Maybe he is going to use a person that is no longer a candidate to Kill Everyone. We know the candidates cannot off themselves, but they CAN be killed. Maybe Claire or something, I don't know, but MiB is most definately playing a game af Castles here.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: IF Widmore is a good guy.....
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 02:20:57 PM »
@IAJ-

True Jacob, who is now dead, brought these people here for a reason.  I think we have only been exposed to certain reasons why this has happened.