"Everyone will cease to be." - Charles Widmore

[Numbers Junkie]

Nope, still think Smokey is just misunderstood.

Tell that to the wife and childhood sweetheart of Oceanic 815 pilot Seth Norris!

It's ok, b/c in his sideverse, he's Matt Parkman from Heroes!!!

[Numbers Junkie]

With Desmond back in the picture, and the inference that he is somehow an important part of the battle, it isn't too much of a leap to think Daniel is also important.  After all, he was the one working on the whole time-skipping thing to begin with and Desmond was his constant.

YES! See my post on episode 10 "Happily Ever After" about this...

[Rebel 3:16]

Some good points in this thread but I have to go on record as saying that I am almost certain that TPTB will not be using that bastard Hitler as any sort of reference in all of this, if they do then I think they are opening a very, very big can of worms.

[opgelost]

FOREMAN: [Chuckles] Right. Okay, so, what? We're gonna go back and kill Hitler?
CHANG: Don't be absurd. There are rules, rules that can't be broken.

I think they allready used him a little.

[I_Am_Jacob]

Actually, Desmond brought it to the Island...TECHNICALLY. As for counterring MiB supporters I've about given up. I know some people think MiB is the ALL GOOD one, and nothing will change that sentiment. To counter the Castro comment, what kind of "Leader" killed all those who wouldn't follow him, and were no longer of any use to them? The name Hitler comes to mind. Don't throw stones unless you're comfortable nothing will get hit if they are thrown back. You can pick apart everything on Lost to support anything you want.

Hitler killed certain groups of people, because he thought they were pure evil.
Not because they wouldn't follow him or because they weren't of any use. He used them a lot to work in his camps, where he took them away from their families and home and they couldn't leave. He decided out of his own stupid mind that they were a danger for humanity and needed to be killed all. He is the same as all other dictators. 

Sounds kind of similar to thinking that Humanity is evil at the core and is corruptable. Hmmm...Sounds famliar.

Maybe you should read some historybooks before just saying things. I studies history, it teaches you a lot.
Hitler didn't think that humanity is evil and corruptable. He divided them in groups. Some groups he called the poisson of humanity (pure evil). They just needed to die and were not worthy to be corrupted. Than there was the ubermensch, the superman, the perfect being, that choosed the right thing totally out of his own choise. The good ones according to Hitler.

Good god woman. Please do not imply that I don't know history. Please don't do that. Across the spanse of the World Wide Web anyone can act like they are the scholar of everything seeing as how there is a wikipedia just a web address away. YOU were the one who started along the lines of bringing real people into the equation. I was playing the proverbial Devil's Advocate. (No Not a reference to me being on Jacob's side as you may counter with). I had no idea that Hitler came up with the Ubermensche idea. No Idea at all. I thought it originally came from Nietzsche. But where would I have gotten that idea?

"All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment…"  _{I did search the web for this exact quote as I didn't have it memorized}

We all know you LOVE MiB. You think everyone should have the right to chose to be Evil if they want to. You are an Anarchist. We get it. MiB IS David Shepherd. It all makes sense now. Sorry to get combative. I'll go back into my hole again, where I have no History books at all.

[BobBX542]

Can we all maybe stop ripping on every last thing that Opie says?? I understand we all like to debate and what have you, but Jeebus, this site wasn't made so we can rip Opie apart. I think we all need to calm down a little. Come on, let's do some breathing exercises, ready?? Okay, begin...Good work everyone.

[opgelost]

It's ok Bob. I'm not nice to him. I make him angry.
Sorry Jacob.
I was only trying to show that a lot of people thought and think that they save humanity from evil, but than they turn out to be
dictators and their evil is not evil at all. It only is in their eyes.

I don't want to discuss the ubermensch. I never said it was Hitler's idea, only saying that he didn't think that humanity is evil, only the part he saw as evil.
And of course we agree that he was a bad man.

[I_Am_Jacob]

I was not trying to rip anyone apart. I was responding to the insinuation that I don't know what I am talking about. Most of the back and forths between OP and myself stem from her responses to what I post as well. Not trying to point the finger, but its true. I come to this board to discuss my theories and listen to those of others. Have no problem with it, but when people assume things about me, I tend to lash out. It seems every thread I post in we have OP telling me how wrong I am. How amazed she is that we all don't see things how she sees them. All I am doing is continuing the discussion. I have no dilusions about my theories. I know many of them will turn out to be false, and when they are, I admit it. The preeminent theory I had for the longest time is seeming more and more unlikely and that's fine. Its why I love the show. It just gets frustrating when I have to keep pointing out that the kid we've seen once all series, and is probably just going to be the result of a failed marriage between Juliet and Jack, is NOT going to turn out to be one of the most important characters in the series. It seems like every thread deviates into this sort of discussion. Even those that aren't neccessarily geared towards talk about it. All of a sudden someone says, "MiB IS in the Side-verse. His Name is David Shepherd." Makes me want to scream.

Alright. Done. I will do my absolute best to cease and desist unless provoked. I will keep the discussions to a happy and cheerful tone to the best of my ability.

[BobBX542]

It's ok Bob. I'm not nice to him. I make him angry.
Sorry Jacob.
I was only trying to show that a lot of people thought and think that they save humanity from evil, but than they turn out to be
dictators and their evil is not evil at all. It only is in their eyes.

I don't want to discuss the ubermensch. I never said it was Hitler's idea, only saying that he didn't think that humanity is evil, only the part he saw as evil.
And of course we agree that he was a bad man.

I was not trying to rip anyone apart. I was responding to the insinuation that I don't know what I am talking about. Most of the back and forths between OP and myself stem from her responses to what I post as well. Not trying to point the finger, but its true. I come to this board to discuss my theories and listen to those of others. Have no problem with it, but when people assume things about me, I tend to lash out. It seems every thread I post in we have OP telling me how wrong I am. How amazed she is that we all don't see things how she sees them. All I am doing is continuing the discussion. I have no dilusions about my theories. I know many of them will turn out to be false, and when they are, I admit it. The preeminent theory I had for the longest time is seeming more and more unlikely and that's fine. Its why I love the show. It just gets frustrating when I have to keep pointing out that the kid we've seen once all series, and is probably just going to be the result of a failed marriage between Juliet and Jack, is NOT going to turn out to be one of the most important characters in the series. It seems like every thread deviates into this sort of discussion. Even those that aren't neccessarily geared towards talk about it. All of a sudden someone says, "MiB IS in the Side-verse. His Name is David Shepherd." Makes me want to scream.

Alright. Done. I will do my absolute best to cease and desist unless provoked. I will keep the discussions to a happy and cheerful tone to the best of my ability.

LOL, hey, if this is mutual "hatred" then feel free, I was actually talking about all of the people that seem to be tearing Opie a new one lately, but okay, nevermind, my fault for trying to be a peacemaker. I guess, uh, continue??

[CaseyMac]

Nearly every single evil person in the history of mankind had rationalized their actions as being for "good". I know Hitler did it, and many other oppressive regimes did it too. I'm sure MIB is doing it as well. He seems to feel that he is unfairly trapped by Jacob and "just wants to go home." Hell, ET just wanted to go home and he wasn't evil.

However, "Many of the truthes we cling to, depend greatly on our own point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I'm sure from MIB's point of view, he is not doing anything evil, but if Widmore is telling the truth and it will result in everyone ceasing to be, then objectively speaking, that would be considered pretty evil. Even if it is a completely seperate timeline, destroying an entire universe would be beyond genocide.

[opgelost]

That is true. In my idea they are the same people, but in different lifes.
I remembered Bea Klugh who asked Mikhail to shoot her, like she knew that even if she died, she would be alife anyway.

[CaseyMac]

That is true. In my idea they are the same people, but in different lifes.
I remembered Bea Klugh who asked Mikhail to shoot her, like she knew that even if she died, she would be alife anyway.

Thats in interesting idea. When it happened, I likened it to a spy movie where the henchman eats a poison pill to kill himself so he can't be interrogated and give away any secrets. Mikhail seemed really resistant to the idea, so if he knew she would be ok, he probably wouldn't have hesitated the way he did.

[I_Am_Jacob]

That is true. In my idea they are the same people, but in different lifes.
I remembered Bea Klugh who asked Mikhail to shoot her, like she knew that even if she died, she would be alife anyway.

Thats in interesting idea. When it happened, I likened it to a spy movie where the henchman eats a poison pill to kill himself so he can't be interrogated and give away any secrets. Mikhail seemed really resistant to the idea, so if he knew she would be ok, he probably wouldn't have hesitated the way he did.

I'm with you on this one. Henchmen always take the poison pill rather than let themselves be captured. That's what I chalked it up to as well.

[Madam P]

Something about Widmore is all about Real Science... stuff you can get your head around (if you're a physicist, I guess.)  He doesn't seem to be thinking along the lines of Boundless Good vs. Evil Incarnate.

Oh, Widmore is definitely thinking along the lines of Good vs. Evil, and always has been apparently.

How so?  I'm not being snarky, I just can't think of examples.   

He's fully aware of MIB, which (on the surface anyway) has zero to do with anything scientific. It's as if he understands MIB's significance in the grand scheme of things.

He mentioned the "war" that could/would take place and Locke's place and importance in it. Doesn't seem as if he's talking about a war of scientists lol. I always took it as meaning a "war" between forces far, far greater than just two groups of people who want to control the scientific aspects of the island. FLocke's comment to Widmore about it looking as if the "war" had now arrived just underscores that feeling and belief.

Plus, Widmore's comment (and the title of this thread) about "everyone will cease to be" doesn't come across as if he feels this will be the result of some scientific mishap or something. It comes across more as a result of something much larger. "Good vs. Evil"-type large.

See, I didn't take it that way.  I thought Widmore was thinking more along the lines of "alternate timelines" or something, which would be more in the "scientific" realm.  But that's probably because that's the way my logical brain wants to try to categorize it.  LOL.  Thanks for sharing your thought processes!

[BobBX542]

So does last night's episode mean that if MIB succeeds and gets off the island, then the Alternate timeline will become the real timeline, which is what Widmore meant by they will "cease to be"??