Author Topic: Biblical References  (Read 4758 times)

Offline TXFlyboy

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2010, 11:40:43 PM »
The think that just kept coming to mind for me during this epi was how JOB like it was.

Offline Ladybug

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2010, 12:33:26 AM »
The think that just kept coming to mind for me during this epi was how JOB like it was.

i hadn't thought of that!  great input tex!

Offline Cardacct

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2010, 03:31:00 AM »
The biblical references that stick out to me:

- Richard seems to be representative of a prophet.  Jacob can't directly tell them, so instead, he sends a messenger, i.e. Richard to do it.
- Jacob as a loose symbol of Christ has to sacrifice his life for the good of all people.  He is the one that keeps the man in black from claiming the world.
- There are some who believe that the apostle John didn't die (per St. John 21:22), so that could be kind of a Richard/John similarity.
- I still have yet to see the man in black eat or drink, which is symbolic of Satan never having received a mortal body.

There are more thoughts I have, but I'll just leave it at that.

Offline Cardacct

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2010, 03:33:40 AM »
Also, I think that with such a heavy prop use of the cross, it's pretty clear that they're at least intending us to infer some Christian symbolism from this episode.  Lost has been pretty heavy in various religious references, not just of Christianity, many of which have been mentioned on this board throughout the episodes.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2010, 09:37:08 AM »
The biblical references that stick out to me:

- Richard seems to be representative of a prophet.  Jacob can't directly tell them, so instead, he sends a messenger, i.e. Richard to do it.
- Jacob as a loose symbol of Christ has to sacrifice his life for the good of all people.  He is the one that keeps the man in black from claiming the world.
- There are some who believe that the apostle John didn't die (per St. John 21:22), so that could be kind of a Richard/John similarity.
- I still have yet to see the man in black eat or drink, which is symbolic of Satan never having received a mortal body.There are more thoughts I have, but I'll just leave it at that.

I hadn't thought of that, great idea!  (and not just because it agrees with my theories!  ;D)

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2010, 09:38:52 AM »
Ladybug:  As usual, your research was excellent and your ideas thoughtful.  This time, however, I think you grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick.  This episode was the confirmation of trends such as Ben's reading Philip K. Dick's "Valis" which foretell a Gnostic interpretation.  Jacob is not a "good" deity on the accepted Christian model.  He most resembles the Lucifer of the Gnostic scriptures (not our Devil Lucifer).  He is in favor of free will but his power is limited and he is capable of manipulation.  This kind of outright contradiction is typical of Gnostic thinking.  The Island represents the Gnostic idea of the Universe created by the "demiurge", an "emanation" of the original ultimate God who pays little attention to anything but himself.  The demiurge is a stupid God who has created a Universe that doesn't work.  Man's ultimate goal is, with the help of Lucifer, to realize that it's an illusion and escape to a higher plane.

I'm holding onto Ladybug's end of the stick.  I keep getting shot down for suggesting that there is a Christian foundation to the show, but I'll do it again anyway.  While I can't argue against your interpretation, I don't see why the writers wouldn't want to base the storyline on characters and beliefs that reach a much wider audience.  The Christian stories are more familiar to more people, believers or not.  By leaning toward a Christian explanation, they aren't asking viewers to convert or be damned, they are just using familiar themes.  Many practicing Christians, myself included, believe that the stories of the bible are just that: stories.  Just as Jesus told 'parables' to get his point across, many people believe the bible is a guide on how to live your life.  This show, in my opinion, is just a story (like Jesus' parables or even Aesop's fables) showing fictional characters and their struggles with good and evil, right and wrong, and ultimately redemption.  So can't Jacob and MIB be 'Jacob and Esau', or can't MIB be satan himself and Jacob his spiritual guardian/warden, and can't the island be the Garden of Eden itself without us, as the viewers, having to accept that these characters and places are real and true?  It is, after all, just a story.
I strongly agree that the show uses Christian references to illustrate certain themes, but I do not think, and I am not suggesting that you do, that the show is a Christian allegory, nor is the point to pitch Christian teachings.  Below is something that I wrote on another thread that I think is appropriate here:

I believe I can offer some evidence that suggests that the show is not a long Bible allegory.  Jacobís conversation with Richard in this episode shows different philosophies on good than the bible. 

Jacob said that, basically, what good is good if oneís arm has to be twisted in order to do it.  Good deeds should be done because they are good, not because you will be punished for not doing it. 

The Bible, quite directly, spells out good as things you can and can not do, and if you go against that, you will be punished.  Jacobsís thoughts on good, or at least why we should be good, seem to be different than the Bibleís.  So I think we can safely assume that LOST is not here to reflect the teachings of the Bible.

I don't mean to offend anyone's thoughts on the bible.  It's just my two cents.  I'm honestly open to debate about this.


I so agree it is not a biblical allegory, it deals with basic spiritual themes

I completely agree... if anything it says abut Christians is that they are easliy led and fooled like sheep. just like MIB lied to Richard and he believed him just because he said he wasnt the devil. if i was a weak person enough to believe in christianity and in his situation i wouldnt wanna chill with the devil either... but then again im not a christian sheep.

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2010, 09:40:37 AM »
The biblical references that stick out to me:

- Richard seems to be representative of a prophet.  Jacob can't directly tell them, so instead, he sends a messenger, i.e. Richard to do it.
- Jacob as a loose symbol of Christ has to sacrifice his life for the good of all people.  He is the one that keeps the man in black from claiming the world.
- There are some who believe that the apostle John didn't die (per St. John 21:22), so that could be kind of a Richard/John similarity.
- I still have yet to see the man in black eat or drink, which is symbolic of Satan never having received a mortal body.There are more thoughts I have, but I'll just leave it at that.

I hadn't thought of that, great idea!  (and not just because it agrees with my theories!  ;D)

good point... even though when we first met him he says "no thanks i just ate" prolly sarcastic meaning.. "you know i cant eat jackass"

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2010, 10:24:08 AM »
if i was a weak person enough to believe in christianity and in his situation i wouldnt wanna chill with the devil either... but then again im not a christian sheep.

Can we agree to disagree on each other's theories without insults, please.  I myself don't believe in Jesus as the 'son of God', nor do I believe in the virgin birth or resurrection which is the basis of the faith, but I believe he was an actual man, a great one at that, a prophet, and I find his teachings to be an inspiration.  Following his teachings on how to live my life doesn't make me weak.  It makes me try to be a better person.  You can be an atheist and still believe that you should 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.  You can be an atheist and still 'love your neighbor'.  For some reason, I get the feeling that you're not just an atheist, but a negative person in general, and your comments are very often offensive.  You insult Christians en masse as if you know them all and they are all the same.  Are you also racist?  Probably.  What have Christians done to you to make you think so lowly of them?

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 10:30:29 AM »
i wasnt insulting, juts voicing my opinion. this is america right? freedom of speech. and freedom of religion. i didnt say anything bad just how easy it is/ was to fool a christian ( in this case richard) because of his loose faith. and how broken of a man he was to believe such aa blatent lie because of the tyrrany and fear the christians pu ton their followers of their mythology. nothign personal.

i am not a racist and im VERY offended by that. i dont hate people generally... i hate them on a  case by case basis. and i dont hate christians... i just find the christian superstition to be very flawed.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 10:34:42 AM by BadRobot64 »

Offline ukslim

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 10:37:42 AM »
this is america right?

Maybe it is where you are...

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2010, 10:40:39 AM »
i wasnt insulting, juts voicing my opinion. this is america right? freedom of speech. and freedom of religion. i didnt say anything bad just how easy it is/ was to fool a christian ( in this case richard) because of his loose faith. and how broken of a man he was to believe such aa blatent lie because of the tyrrany and fear the christians pu ton their followers of their mythology. nothign personal.

i am not a racist and im VERY offended by that. i dont hate people generally... i hate them on a  case by case basis. and i dont hate christians... i just find the christian superstition to be very flawed.


if i was a weak person enough to believe in christianity and in his situation i wouldnt wanna chill with the devil either... but then again im not a christian sheep.

Quote from: BadRobot64 2/17
i really hope they dont go christianity on us...that will blow...jsut like christianity...it blows...


I'm as American as anyone so I'm all for your free speech, but sorry, these are insults not opinions.
And I don't know if you've ever been to a Christian mass, but it's all about love and mercy, not tyranny and fear.  And once again, loving AND RESPECTING your neighbor.

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2010, 11:04:04 AM »
this is america right?

Maybe it is where you are...

true... and jeez dont tell me i offended you as well...

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2010, 11:08:03 AM »
i wasnt insulting, juts voicing my opinion. this is america right? freedom of speech. and freedom of religion. i didnt say anything bad just how easy it is/ was to fool a christian ( in this case richard) because of his loose faith. and how broken of a man he was to believe such aa blatent lie because of the tyrrany and fear the christians pu ton their followers of their mythology. nothign personal.

i am not a racist and im VERY offended by that. i dont hate people generally... i hate them on a  case by case basis. and i dont hate christians... i just find the christian superstition to be very flawed.


if i was a weak person enough to believe in christianity and in his situation i wouldnt wanna chill with the devil either... but then again im not a christian sheep.

Quote from: BadRobot64 2/17
i really hope they dont go christianity on us...that will blow...jsut like christianity...it blows...


I'm as American as anyone so I'm all for your free speech, but sorry, these are insults not opinions.
And I don't know if you've ever been to a Christian mass, but it's all about love and mercy, not tyranny and fear.  And once again, loving AND RESPECTING your neighbor.


they are opinions.. and you saying they are insults are your opinion... yes ive gone to a Xian mass. i went to 16 years of it and 4 years of theology classes in college for my philosophy degree. in ancient cultures. i dont want to continue this in open forum but i just have to say that yes NOW .. maybe Christianity wants to think its based on love and respect... but it wasnt when it first started... and look at all the wars and killing in the name of the christian god there has been... not saying its the only religion to do so... but its flawed in many other ways as well.. if youd like to actually discuss this id be happy to.. send me a personal message.. this isnt content to be discussed in open forum thank you very much.

Offline Geronimo Jackson

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2010, 12:56:30 PM »
i don't think tptb are trying to preach to us by any means, i just think there are a lot of Biblical references, likenesses, or whatever you'd like to call them.

completely agree just as there are a lot of literary references from famous books, (especially Sci Fi) famous philosophers etc.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Biblical References
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2010, 01:00:00 PM »
i wasnt insulting, juts voicing my opinion. this is america right? freedom of speech. and freedom of religion. i didnt say anything bad just how easy it is/ was to fool a christian ( in this case richard) because of his loose faith. and how broken of a man he was to believe such aa blatent lie because of the tyrrany and fear the christians pu ton their followers of their mythology. nothign personal.

i am not a racist and im VERY offended by that. i dont hate people generally... i hate them on a  case by case basis. and i dont hate christians... i just find the christian superstition to be very flawed.


if i was a weak person enough to believe in christianity and in his situation i wouldnt wanna chill with the devil either... but then again im not a christian sheep.

Quote from: BadRobot64 2/17
i really hope they dont go christianity on us...that will blow...jsut like christianity...it blows...


I'm as American as anyone so I'm all for your free speech, but sorry, these are insults not opinions.
And I don't know if you've ever been to a Christian mass, but it's all about love and mercy, not tyranny and fear.  And once again, loving AND RESPECTING your neighbor.


they are opinions.. and you saying they are insults are your opinion... yes ive gone to a Xian mass. i went to 16 years of it and 4 years of theology classes in college for my philosophy degree. in ancient cultures. i dont want to continue this in open forum but i just have to say that yes NOW .. maybe Christianity wants to think its based on love and respect... but it wasnt when it first started... and look at all the wars and killing in the name of the christian god there has been... not saying its the only religion to do so... but its flawed in many other ways as well.. if youd like to actually discuss this id be happy to.. send me a personal message.. this isnt content to be discussed in open forum thank you very much.

Well, we certainly agree that Christianity, and probably every organized religion, is flawed.  I've always believed the 'churches' have become what the people in charge have wanted them to be, and much that goes on completely contradicts the very teachings they refer to in the bible.  I'm not pushing ANY form of the Christian church on anyone, I simply read in your responses that you feel anyone who calls themselves a Christian is an ignorant, weak-minded lamb.  I jumped on your words because of your former reply to me that 'Christianity blows', which is indeed your deserved opinion, but as the educated person you seem to be, could have been expressed with a little more class.

I'm responding to your last message in this forum and not privately because I do want to apologize about referring to you as possibly racist also, which I had no basis to suggest, and I wanted to do that publicly as well.  That said, back to the topic.........