Author Topic: Jacob Baptizing Richard  (Read 9075 times)

Offline lovinlost

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2010, 10:46:57 AM »
Yes, it is symbolic Baptism.  Baptism is itself symbolic.  Many people are so resistant to any kind of Biblical reference that they refuse to acknowledge its presence, as if to do so would be some kind of admission of faith...which it is not.  This was similar to the way that many folks reacted when I started bringing up time travel after Desmond's first "Flashes before his eyes" experience...afraid that acknowledging the presence of time travel would make them a sci-fi nerd...which it doesn't.

Well, it's pretty tough to ignore the Biblical references when Ricardus himself was reading a Bible.  LOL

Offline Ladybug

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2010, 10:56:21 AM »
Kinda interesting how Jacob basically baptized Richard by dunking him in the water, more or less saying he was "born again" after that (since Richard thought he was already dead). And they even had Jacob giving Richard eternal life after the baptism lol.
i'm with you.  i loved the scene.  this whole show has been filled with Biblical symbolism, we've been discussing it for years now.  last night's "baptism" (and what happened afterward) was so in your face, i don't see how anyone can dissagree with you!

Offline Ladybug

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2010, 10:58:02 AM »
Yes, it is symbolic Baptism.  Baptism is itself symbolic.  Many people are so resistant to any kind of Biblical reference that they refuse to acknowledge its presence, as if to do so would be some kind of admission of faith...which it is not.  This was similar to the way that many folks reacted when I started bringing up time travel after Desmond's first "Flashes before his eyes" experience...afraid that acknowledging the presence of time travel would make them a sci-fi nerd...which it doesn't.

Well, it's pretty tough to ignore the Biblical references when Ricardus himself was reading a Bible.  LOL
Amen!  That & how important isabella's cross was to the story.

Offline lovinlost

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2010, 11:00:39 AM »
Yes, it is symbolic Baptism.  Baptism is itself symbolic.  Many people are so resistant to any kind of Biblical reference that they refuse to acknowledge its presence, as if to do so would be some kind of admission of faith...which it is not.  This was similar to the way that many folks reacted when I started bringing up time travel after Desmond's first "Flashes before his eyes" experience...afraid that acknowledging the presence of time travel would make them a sci-fi nerd...which it doesn't.

Well, it's pretty tough to ignore the Biblical references when Ricardus himself was reading a Bible.  LOL
Amen!  That & how important isabella's cross was to the story.

Ah, yes.  The cross necklace.  I'm sorry, but Ricardus's backstory was so freakin' incredibly awesome.  I am still riding the high.

Offline Folly529

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2010, 11:07:22 AM »
and Amen again ;D

The biblical references, the mythology references and the sci-fi riffs are all important for contextualizing the main story.

With Richard, the depth of his religiousity is an important part of his character:
  • he was teaching himself English using the Bible - one could do that only if one had pretty well memorized the Bible in one's native language
  • he was more anguished by the idea of not receiving absolution from the priest than he was at the prospect of execution
  • the cross was incredibly important to him

I actually found it interesting that - other than the cross - Richard makes few religious references after he arrives on the Island.  I would think the character would put Jacob's explanation into his own existing religious framework.

Maybe that whole 'we have a deal' with the Devil freaked 'im out a bit!

Offline Ladybug

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2010, 11:10:21 AM »
and Amen again ;D

The biblical references, the mythology references and the sci-fi riffs are all important for contextualizing the main story.

With Richard, the depth of his religiousity is an important part of his character:
  • he was teaching himself English using the Bible - one could do that only if one had pretty well memorized the Bible in one's native language
  • he was more anguished by the idea of not receiving absolution from the priest than he was at the prospect of execution
  • the cross was incredibly important to him

I actually found it interesting that - other than the cross - Richard makes few religious references after he arrives on the Island.  I would think the character would put Jacob's explanation into his own existing religious framework.

Maybe that whole 'we have a deal' with the Devil freaked 'im out a bit!

i think we just haven't seen richard enough in the past to know if he is religious or not, or about his religious beliefs.  he's always been a background character of sorts who just helps others' stories along.  last night was our first real view of richard as richard.

Offline Madam P

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2010, 11:11:56 AM »
What The, just for what it's worth, I immediately saw the baptism symbolism as well.  So no, you're not alone out there.   ;)

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2010, 11:31:01 AM »
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Don't go around starting too many sentences with, "I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way,..." It makes the rest of us look bad.

Kinda interesting how Jacob basically baptized Richard by dunking him in the water, more or less saying he was "born again" after that (since Richard thought he was already dead). And they even had Jacob giving Richard eternal life after the baptism lol.

To tell you the truth, I at first thought it was just Jacob being dramatic, but after the whole scene was over, and I thought about, the baptism thing hit me over the head like a ton of bricks. I was actually shocked at how I could have missed it the first time around LOL.

i think we just haven't seen richard enough in the past to know if he is religious or not, or about his religious beliefs.  he's always been a background character of sorts who just helps others' stories along.  last night was our first real view of richard as richard.

Ladybug, please tell me this is sarcasm. Please. How can you say we don't know enough to know if he's religious or not?? He was not only reading a bible and praying, but like Folly pointed out, he was teaching him self English by reading the bible, which means he must have, at some point memorized his Spanish bible. On top of that, a Catholic Priest comes to his cell, and Richard asks for absolution and forgiveness. Then, when the priest tells him that he will go to hell because he has no time to make pennance for murder, you can see how upset Richard is. It is plainly obvious that Richard was a die hard Catholic.

Offline Creflo

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2010, 11:36:08 AM »
By "in the past" I think she meant previous episodes, not 19th century.

Offline vickilynn

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2010, 11:42:51 AM »
I guess the scene works on both fronts. It wasn't a literal baptism though. I'm not sure Jacob is a "Christian" - to say I don't think he is part of that religion. It could have been symbolic to Richard though. I'm thinking that because Richards religion was so important to him (in the time and geography of his real life, it was very important, especially to peons) that what he sees and experiences is filtered through his belief system. I for one do not believe in a literal place called Hell, but if you do, then I can see why you would think you're in Hell after what Richard experienced.

Offline lostandfree

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2010, 12:13:50 PM »
I guess the scene works on both fronts. It wasn't a literal baptism though. I'm not sure Jacob is a "Christian" - to say I don't think he is part of that religion. It could have been symbolic to Richard though. I'm thinking that because Richards religion was so important to him (in the time and geography of his real life, it was very important, especially to peons) that what he sees and experiences is filtered through his belief system. I for one do not believe in a literal place called Hell, but if you do, then I can see why you would think you're in Hell after what Richard experienced.

It wasn't a symbolic baptism for Jacob or for Richard.  It was symbolic for us.  I don't think either of them were thinking of it this way at the time.  It was just something interesting for us to catch.

WhatThe I get you!

Offline MachThree

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2010, 12:28:32 PM »
I didn't want to start a new topic so I'll post it here.

Ricardo has been on the island (off the ship) for a day and knows more then all the others combined. He knows how the Black Rock got to the middl eof the jungle, what happened to the statue, where Jacob lives, that MiB is Smokey, what Jacobs role on the island is, Jacob brought him and others before him to the island for a galactic test, why he hasn't aged in 150 years, who was captain of the Black Rock. I am sure there is more this is all I can think of. It took the rest of the islanders 5 seasons to get the knowlege Richard received in 1 day.
True - but what happened I think is:

a) Jacob, over time, brings lots of people to the island, and they all die
b) Smokey declares he wants to kill Jacob and find a loophole (season 5 finale)
c) Smokey makes his first attempt at finding a loophole - a somewhat clumsy attempt where he tries to scare Ricardo straight out into killing Jacob.  The attempt fails.
d) I'm speculating, but... Smokey learns from his mistake.  The next time he has a chance to use someone else to kill Jacob, he plans it much better, is much more deliberate about it.  He doesn't just reveal himself willy-nilly, instead he plots and plans, and Jacob himself remains in seclusion, trying to not interfere and letting Ricardus do it for him.  So no one learns anything for a long time.

Oh, to heck with it.  It wouldn't have been much of a show had the 815'ers done everything in a day, would it?  I can accept a little less reality in exchange for a little more story.

Offline laklost

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2010, 12:45:15 PM »
The most significant aspect of all this to me was to hold up next to it Dogen's trying to revive Sayid.  Was he unable to do it because Smokey had ruined the water?  Had the people at the Temple turned Jacob's act of baptizing Richard into a kind of religious rite that future candidates had to undergo?  They wouldn't know what the water would do - bring the person to life in Jacob's will or in MIB's - until the person acted.  I wonder if at one point all the water on the island was pure - and therefore life giving - but it became corruptible due to Smokey's crimes.  The people in the Temple seemed to be playing at Last Stand but it looks like the Losties are really the final checkpoint.

Offline infrared41

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2010, 12:46:04 PM »
The religious symbolism was so thick you couldn't see the jungle for it. There was the "baptism" which was obvious. Then there was Richard digging up and donning the cross right before Hurley comes along to make sure Richard stays on the "righteous" path. There was Isabella giving Richard the "absolution" he had sought for so long. Hell, Jacob giving Richard "eternal life" was straight out of The Bible. If people didn't see the religious symbolism last night then they were either not paying attention or they were watching CSI or whatever is on against LOST.  :)

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2010, 01:14:25 PM »
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Don't go around starting too many sentences with, "I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way,..." It makes the rest of us look bad.


The rest of us atheists?