Author Topic: So Was Christian Really The MIB?  (Read 5575 times)

Offline WhatThe

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So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« on: March 17, 2010, 06:58:43 AM »
The assumption is that he was...that every manifestation of a human being was smokie doing his thing. But there are some inconsistencies (kinda):

- Christian appeared in the cabin with Claire right after she disappeared. When asked about Aaron, Locke was told "He's where he is supposed to be" (or words to that effect). Claire seemed completely content with that knowledge. Now, however, MIB is saying that Claire was unhinged due to not knowing what happened to Aaron, and he told her the people in the temple had him to "give her something to hate". If that was really MIB as Christian in the cabin with Claire, why did he calm her so much and reassure her about Aaron being "where he's supposed to be", then later tell her that basically Aaron is NOT "where he's supposed to be" and fester her anger and hate?

- Christian in the cabin ended up telling Locke that he had to move the island in order to save it. Yet MIB keeps telling everyone that the island doesn't NEED saving or protecting. Why would he tell Locke what to do to save the island, and then do all he could to convince everyone NOT to bother trying to save the island?

- Christian appeared to Jack early in season one, and seemed to almost guide him to the cave and fresh water, as well as show him that his coffin was empty. Why would MIB want to aid and assist Jack in any way by posting as Christian?

- MIB keeps saying that he just wants to leave the island. Yet Christian appeared to Jack off the island, while in the lobby of the hospital, as well as to Michael on the boat. If MIB can leave the island to pose as Christian, then what's keeping him from leaving the island now?

- When Christian appeared to Locke after he fell down the well and told him to turn the "donkey wheel", he mentioned to locke to "tell my son hello" (can't remember if he said this on camera or off). Once Locke is off the island and ends up in a car crash, he is taken to Jack's hospital, which Locke considered fate. While trying to convince Jack to return to the island, and Jack is severely blowing him off, Locke says "Your father says hello". He then goes on to tell Jack that he said his name was Christian, etc, etc. If Christian was really MIB, why would he be giving instructions to Locke to help him get Jack back to the island? I'd think he'd want to keep Jack away from the island, especially seeing how Jacob wants him there.

- Christian told Locke he has to turn the donkey wheel in order to leave the island and get everyone to return--basically, to get all the candidates back on the island. But who has his men waiting there for Locke the split second he is "transported" back off the island? Widmore. It's as if "Christian" sent Locke deliberately back to Widmore. Yet as we saw in today's episode Widmore and MIB are on opposite sides. So did Widmore somehow "know" Locke would eventually appear there, or did "Christian" tip him off to Locke's arrival in order for Widmore and his men to protect Locke from dying (as Widmore said he was intent on doing)? MIB needed Locke to return dead, though...so why would he send Locke into Widmore's waiting and protective arms?

- Why would MIB be helping Sun find Jin? In the episode "Namaste", Christian appeared to be helping and guiding Sun in her quest to find Jin. And as he's talking to her you can faintly see some dark "fog" enter the room in the background. If Christian was/is the MIB 1) why would he be helping Sun, and 2) why would smoke enter the room after he's already taken Christian's form?


MIB as Christian seemed to be doing almost everything in complete contradiction to what MIB as Locke is doing. So is it possible that Christian is someone/something else altogether?

Offline jugdish

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2010, 07:04:25 AM »
I do not have answers to these questions but they are great questions. Some of them could be explained as lies or writing errors but Christian being off island really does not make any sense. There is no information to support MIB ever being off island, so that is a major issue. Maybe Christian was working for/as Jacob.

Offline Optimus J

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2010, 07:42:58 AM »
Yeah, such good arguments against Christian be MIB and only two in favor:
-MIB and Smokey never appear at the same time, no matter where. If one is acting, the other is missing.
-MIB and Unlocke can make vanishing acts and "read minds"

Still there was always one thing that Christian said that make me feel uncomfortable, about he being smokey: "You can go, now" to Michael. That looked so out of character...
And just correcting, Christian almost bring Jack to his own dead on season 1, guiding him to a cliff.

Offline grizn0

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2010, 09:05:43 AM »
The best point (IMO) you made was that Christian wanted Locke to bring everyone back. MIB knows about Jacob's want for candidates. And he knows the names of said candidates. So why would he try to get the candidates back there if he just wanted to leave the island. Good thoughts man, good thoughts.

Offline CrashandCari

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 10:09:50 AM »
I totally agree.. its confusing.  Especially if you want to go with the theory that Michael was touched by Jacob and therefore couldn't kill himself but then was able to die when Christian showed up and told him he could go now.

Maybe both MIB AND Jacob can manifest as someone dead?  Then that would explain the differences in all the Christians we saw??

Offline jkbeaulieu

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 10:52:03 AM »
Both Jacob and MIB are looking for replacements.  We know MIB wants off the island.  He offered Ben the opportunity to be the leader (his replacement) after he is gone.  Jacob is trying to find a replacement.  MIB said he took Locke's form NOT because Locke was dead and the person had to be dead but because it would gain him access to the temple. (Plus shock and awe value to help manipulate Ben into stabbing Jacob).  So, I think it is still unsettled that Christian was solely a tool of MIB or of Jacob. 

As far as Michael is concerned, we may have not seen yet when he was touched by Jacob, assuming he was.  Perhaps MIB can give the gift of eternal life as well - meaning the inability to commit suicide.  And when Christian appeared to him on the boat, he took back the gift.  And Michael dies.

About MIB helping Jack get back to the island.  The saying is, "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer."  Maybe MIB wanted Jack to come back if for no other reason than to thwart Jacob's plan to make him a replacement by either killing him or keeping him from following Jacob.  I personally believe MIB cannot kill Jack.  Season One, Episode 2 Kate, Jack, and Charlie go looking for the cockpit of Oceanic 815.  They find it and the pilot is still alive. (The pilot that should have been Lapidus who Illana referred to as a possible candidate.)  So the smoke monster kills the pilot because it is not Lapidus, the potential candidate.  Later in the epi. Jack is being chased down by Smokey (MIB) and Kate and Charlie think he's dead and then he pops up.  He says he doesn't know what happened.  One minute it was there, the next it wasn't.  So either MIB could not kill Jack or Jacob intervened on behalf of a potential replacement.

All the characters who are potential candidates that encountered Smokey lived to tell the tale.  Only those who were not candidates were killed by Smokey.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 11:01:10 AM »
I do not have answers to these questions but they are great questions. Some of them could be explained as lies or writing errors but Christian being off island really does not make any sense. There is no information to support MIB ever being off island, so that is a major issue. Maybe Christian was working for/as Jacob.

REALLY good points in this thread. Too many obvious contradictions for this to be just writing errors or lies, IMHO.  I'm going with 'MIB does NOT equal Christian', final answer.

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 11:04:28 AM »
Did Widmore ever say he wanted to kill Flocke? Or is Sawyer assuming that after Smokey said he thinks there might be people that want to kill him? Widmore may verywell be on smokies side and will tell Flocke that Sawyer wants to betray him. I call Flocke pulling a long con on Sawyer.

Oh and if Hurley can see dead people why not Jack, Locke and the others that have seen Christian?

Offline mrs_matthew_fox

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 11:33:47 AM »
I used to think that Christian was Smokey but these arguments make way too much sense.. now im thinking that Jacob can take on bodies just like Smokey can. Which would make way more sense since jacob can leave the island (Which we've seen through his 'touches' and since Christian did) .. but I wonder why Claire isn't with Christian anymore. Maybe when Jacob was killed, Christian wasn't around and Smokey (as Locke) came in to replace him.

Offline Holland34

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 02:00:57 PM »
I am going to say that I think MiB has been Christian at least some of the time.  And my reasoning is based on some of the same things listed in this thread (after I started, I realized there was probably a better way to organize this response... sorry, it's a bit convoluted to look at).

- Christian in the cabin ended up telling Locke that he had to move the island in order to save it. Yet MIB keeps telling everyone that the island doesn't NEED saving or protecting. Why would he tell Locke what to do to save the island, and then do all he could to convince everyone NOT to bother trying to save the island?
  I think Christian tells Locke to move the island not because he thinks it needs to be moved (although that could still be a possibility), but because he's kicking off the process that will end in Locke's death and his body being returned to the island so that MiB can take it over.  It seems well established that MiB can only take on the likeness of dead people whose body is on the island.

- Christian told Locke he has to turn the donkey wheel in order to leave the island and get everyone to return--basically, to get all the candidates back on the island. But who has his men waiting there for Locke the split second he is "transported" back off the island? Widmore. It's as if "Christian" sent Locke deliberately back to Widmore. Yet as we saw in today's episode Widmore and MIB are on opposite sides. So did Widmore somehow "know" Locke would eventually appear there, or did "Christian" tip him off to Locke's arrival in order for Widmore and his men to protect Locke from dying (as Widmore said he was intent on doing)? MIB needed Locke to return dead, though...so why would he send Locke into Widmore's waiting and protective arms?
I think Widmore is just being opportunistic and looking for anyone who comes out of that portal to try to find a way to return to the island.  Also, remember that Locke thought he was acting on Jacob's orders at that time... it could be a great diversion by MiB to get Widmore to help Locke if Widmore thinks it is in support of Jacob.

- Christian appeared to Jack early in season one, and seemed to almost guide him to the cave and fresh water, as well as show him that his coffin was empty. Why would MIB want to aid and assist Jack in any way by posting as Christian?
Jack's perception of this (as he mentioned earlier this season) was that the "apparition" basically tried to run him off a cliff and he discovered the cave after that on accident.  Not sure MiB was aiding him on that chase.

- Why would MIB be helping Sun find Jin? In the episode "Namaste", Christian appeared to be helping and guiding Sun in her quest to find Jin. And as he's talking to her you can faintly see some dark "fog" enter the room in the background. If Christian was/is the MIB 1) why would he be helping Sun, and 2) why would smoke enter the room after he's already taken Christian's form?
I don't think Christian ever did anything to actually help Sun find Jin.  He just said he would help.  But so did MiB while posing as Locke (last season's finale).

There are somethings that I don't have explanations for... such as why did Christian appear to Jack off-island.  That's actually bugged me for a long time.  However, I think there are at least some instances where Christian and the MiB are acting in the same interest as one another and could very well be one and the same.  (My perspective.)

Offline jodeci

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 02:25:38 PM »
i was, and still am under the impression that christian was jacob, or personified, or worked for, or whatever with jacob.  when he was in the cabin christian said he wasn't jacob, but that he could speak for him.  i don't think christian is an entity of the mib, but that doesn't explain how claire ended up with mib when she walked away with as miles stated, her dad.  ??

Offline cookieshoes

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 03:42:39 PM »
All good questions, but (save for Christian appearing to Jack off-island - which could've also just been Jack hallucinating) I think that they are all explained by the fact that MIB had to manipulate all of the "chess pieces" involved, without Jacob knowing it, so that he could get the end result he wanted.  The game is still in play, and ultimately we have no idea what the MIB really wants, or where he's really trying to get to.

So, any appearance of Christian/MIB encouraging Locke to move the island, save the island, or help bring the survivors back to island, was all part of a larger manipulation. These actions weren't meant to let the viewer know how MIB actually feels, but rather to show how he played upon each of the Losties weakenesses and personalities so that the MIB gets what he wants. So, that the MIB is now telling people that the island doesn't need saving, and that he'll let Sawyer leave the island are likely just more lies and manipulations in progress.

Offline grizn0

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 03:44:17 PM »
Another thing I just remembered about Christian and Sn in the cabin. In the actual scene I think all he really tells her is that she has a long journey ahead of her to find Jin. But then later when Ben and Locke come across and Ben goes inside; doesn't Sun say that Christian told her she had to stay here and wait for John Locke? If thats the case, then that is even more evidence that Christian was not MIB. But, he may be on MIB's "side". God, this is confusing.

Offline opgelost

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 03:57:02 PM »
The assumption is that he was...that every manifestation of a human being was smokie doing his thing. But there are some inconsistencies (kinda):

- Christian appeared in the cabin with Claire right after she disappeared. When asked about Aaron, Locke was told "He's where he is supposed to be" (or words to that effect). Claire seemed completely content with that knowledge. Now, however, MIB is saying that Claire was unhinged due to not knowing what happened to Aaron, and he told her the people in the temple had him to "give her something to hate". If that was really MIB as Christian in the cabin with Claire, why did he calm her so much and reassure her about Aaron being "where he's supposed to be", then later tell her that basically Aaron is NOT "where he's supposed to be" and fester her anger and hate?


- Christian in the cabin ended up telling Locke that he had to move the island in order to save it. Yet MIB keeps telling everyone that the island doesn't NEED saving or protecting. Why would he tell Locke what to do to save the island, and then do all he could to convince everyone NOT to bother trying to save the island?

- Christian appeared to Jack early in season one, and seemed to almost guide him to the cave and fresh water, as well as show him that his coffin was empty. Why would MIB want to aid and assist Jack in any way by posting as Christian?

- MIB keeps saying that he just wants to leave the island. Yet Christian appeared to Jack off the island, while in the lobby of the hospital, as well as to Michael on the boat. If MIB can leave the island to pose as Christian, then what's keeping him from leaving the island now?

- When Christian appeared to Locke after he fell down the well and told him to turn the "donkey wheel", he mentioned to locke to "tell my son hello" (can't remember if he said this on camera or off). Once Locke is off the island and ends up in a car crash, he is taken to Jack's hospital, which Locke considered fate. While trying to convince Jack to return to the island, and Jack is severely blowing him off, Locke says "Your father says hello". He then goes on to tell Jack that he said his name was Christian, etc, etc. If Christian was really MIB, why would he be giving instructions to Locke to help him get Jack back to the island? I'd think he'd want to keep Jack away from the island, especially seeing how Jacob wants him there.

- Christian told Locke he has to turn the donkey wheel in order to leave the island and get everyone to return--basically, to get all the candidates back on the island. But who has his men waiting there for Locke the split second he is "transported" back off the island? Widmore. It's as if "Christian" sent Locke deliberately back to Widmore. Yet as we saw in today's episode Widmore and MIB are on opposite sides. So did Widmore somehow "know" Locke would eventually appear there, or did "Christian" tip him off to Locke's arrival in order for Widmore and his men to protect Locke from dying (as Widmore said he was intent on doing)? MIB needed Locke to return dead, though...so why would he send Locke into Widmore's waiting and protective arms?

- Why would MIB be helping Sun find Jin? In the episode "Namaste", Christian appeared to be helping and guiding Sun in her quest to find Jin. And as he's talking to her you can faintly see some dark "fog" enter the room in the background. If Christian was/is the MIB 1) why would he be helping Sun, and 2) why would smoke enter the room after he's already taken Christian's form?


MIB as Christian seemed to be doing almost everything in complete contradiction to what MIB as Locke is doing. So is it possible that Christian is someone/something else altogether?


1. I think he protected Aaron. If he had stayed with Claire the others would have taken him or he would have started moving through time.
2. He told Locke what Locke wanted to hear, that he had to save the island, but Locke had to travel trough time to con Richard and to convince himself that he had to die and come back to the island to be a substitute for MIB, who than could kill Jacob.
3. I think Jack is his daddy and he wanted him to survive, to find Adam and Eve and to see Christian's empty coffin, because Jack is a man of science and he needs to see things to believe them.
4. I think he doesn't just want to leave the island. He wants to leave the islandtimeline in his own body.
5. I think he is the one that wants Jack to believe in him not Jacob. Jacob tries to get Jack as far away from Smoky as possible, off island, out of the temple, in the town with the others protected by the pilons.
6. I think that is the only exit and Widmore knows it and placed a camera. But he allready send Ben there, who will kill Abbadon and later Locke and Sayid to kill all the people working for Widmore.
7. Because he is not bad. He told Sun to wait for Locke and who was Locke?

Offline Thomas

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Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 05:10:12 PM »
The assumption is that he was...that every manifestation of a human being was smokie doing his thing. But there are some inconsistencies (kinda):

- Christian appeared in the cabin with Claire right after she disappeared. When asked about Aaron, Locke was told "He's where he is supposed to be" (or words to that effect). Claire seemed completely content with that knowledge. Now, however, MIB is saying that Claire was unhinged due to not knowing what happened to Aaron, and he told her the people in the temple had him to "give her something to hate". If that was really MIB as Christian in the cabin with Claire, why did he calm her so much and reassure her about Aaron being "where he's supposed to be", then later tell her that basically Aaron is NOT "where he's supposed to be" and fester her anger and hate?

- Christian in the cabin ended up telling Locke that he had to move the island in order to save it. Yet MIB keeps telling everyone that the island doesn't NEED saving or protecting. Why would he tell Locke what to do to save the island, and then do all he could to convince everyone NOT to bother trying to save the island?

- Christian appeared to Jack early in season one, and seemed to almost guide him to the cave and fresh water, as well as show him that his coffin was empty. Why would MIB want to aid and assist Jack in any way by posting as Christian?

- MIB keeps saying that he just wants to leave the island. Yet Christian appeared to Jack off the island, while in the lobby of the hospital, as well as to Michael on the boat. If MIB can leave the island to pose as Christian, then what's keeping him from leaving the island now?

- When Christian appeared to Locke after he fell down the well and told him to turn the "donkey wheel", he mentioned to locke to "tell my son hello" (can't remember if he said this on camera or off). Once Locke is off the island and ends up in a car crash, he is taken to Jack's hospital, which Locke considered fate. While trying to convince Jack to return to the island, and Jack is severely blowing him off, Locke says "Your father says hello". He then goes on to tell Jack that he said his name was Christian, etc, etc. If Christian was really MIB, why would he be giving instructions to Locke to help him get Jack back to the island? I'd think he'd want to keep Jack away from the island, especially seeing how Jacob wants him there.

- Christian told Locke he has to turn the donkey wheel in order to leave the island and get everyone to return--basically, to get all the candidates back on the island. But who has his men waiting there for Locke the split second he is "transported" back off the island? Widmore. It's as if "Christian" sent Locke deliberately back to Widmore. Yet as we saw in today's episode Widmore and MIB are on opposite sides. So did Widmore somehow "know" Locke would eventually appear there, or did "Christian" tip him off to Locke's arrival in order for Widmore and his men to protect Locke from dying (as Widmore said he was intent on doing)? MIB needed Locke to return dead, though...so why would he send Locke into Widmore's waiting and protective arms?

- Why would MIB be helping Sun find Jin? In the episode "Namaste", Christian appeared to be helping and guiding Sun in her quest to find Jin. And as he's talking to her you can faintly see some dark "fog" enter the room in the background. If Christian was/is the MIB 1) why would he be helping Sun, and 2) why would smoke enter the room after he's already taken Christian's form?


MIB as Christian seemed to be doing almost everything in complete contradiction to what MIB as Locke is doing. So is it possible that Christian is someone/something else altogether?


I'm going with Christian = MIB.

Christian got Claire away from the others to turn her, then lied to her again and said the others took her baby.   

Christian guided Jack to the cave, probably hoping to gain his trust and turn him in time as well.

I wouldn't say Dream Christian is the same as smokey/MIB Christian..but maybe.

Christian wanted Locke - not Ben to turn the wheel, because MIB (Christian) wanted Locke to leave the island, get killed, then have his body shipped back so he could become him and use him to kill Jacob....the loophole.    This wasn't to save the island, that was a lie told to manipulate Locke.    MIB wanted all candidates to return, so he could turn them to his side and prove Jacob wrong.

Sun hasn't seen Jin in a long time.   If she's getting help, it hasn't been much.    If he was helping, he already knows where Jin is and could lead her to him.   Most likely just another manipulation that he will try to use to turn them as well.



In summary... I don't think their actions have been contradictory.    I don't think we'll be seeing Christian again, Smokey can't become him anymore.