Author Topic: Ben, The Purge, The Others  (Read 5931 times)

Offline WhatThe

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Ben, The Purge, The Others
« on: March 12, 2010, 05:45:24 AM »
Somebody refresh my memory: did Ben ever say why he ordered the purge of the Dharma people? I can't remember. Did he say it was on the orders of Jacob? We know now that if he did say that he was lying since Jacob never talked to him or interacted with him. But if that's the case, then I'm curious as to why Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben and his ability to kill (as Miles indicated), especially after seeing Ben orchestrate the massacre of all those innocent people and realizing he killed Locke as well (I'm assuming Jacob would have known that).

Also, was it ever said why Ben became the leader of the Others? I know Richard told Locke back in 1955 that there was a process to decide who should be the leader...was it ever explained what that process is? (I'm assuming not)

Lastly, if Ben never did actually talk or even interact with Jacob until the moment he killed him, why was Ben so obsessed with giving up everything in service of Jacob and protecting the island? Wouldn't that mean that someone else who CAN interact with Jacob filled Ben in on what Jacob's wants and desires for everyone would be? The thing is, though, Lost made it seem as if Ben used his alleged power to talk to and with Jacob to manipulate himself into power. But if he was told about Jacob by someone else, wouldn't that "someone else" be able to tell all the Others that Ben is lying about talking to Jacob?

« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 05:56:34 AM by WhatThe »

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 09:23:47 AM »
Somebody refresh my memory: did Ben ever say why he ordered the purge of the Dharma people? I can't remember. Did he say it was on the orders of Jacob? We know now that if he did say that he was lying since Jacob never talked to him or interacted with him. But if that's the case, then I'm curious as to why Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben and his ability to kill (as Miles indicated), especially after seeing Ben orchestrate the massacre of all those innocent people and realizing he killed Locke as well (I'm assuming Jacob would have known that).

I would speculate the hatred he had for his father, and the time he met richard in the forest, and Richard told him he could be with them but it would take time, So I think Richard had a reason also.

Quote
Also, was it ever said why Ben became the leader of the Others? I know Richard told Locke back in 1955 that there was a process to decide who should be the leader...was it ever explained what that process is? (I'm assuming not)

other than them showing us Ben escorting Widmore to the docks, no (didnt mean caps earlier) I don;t beleive they did say why

Quote
Lastly, if Ben never did actually talk or even interact with Jacob until the moment he killed him, why was Ben so obsessed with giving up everything in service of Jacob and protecting the island? Wouldn't that mean that someone else who CAN interact with Jacob filled Ben in on what Jacob's wants and desires for everyone would be? The thing is, though, Lost made it seem as if Ben used his alleged power to talk to and with Jacob to manipulate himself into power. But if he was told about Jacob by someone else, wouldn't that "someone else" be able to tell all the Others that Ben is lying about talking to Jacob?

Maybe he was talking to MIB, knew MIB wastn Jacob but MIB was able to give him most of the details about Jacob, which led the others think he was a chosen one of sorts? and of course he wouldnt twell the others that he wasnt talking to Jacobin reality.

[/quote]
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 09:18:47 PM by SQUIRT199 »

Offline jamesl

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 11:17:35 AM »
...
Lastly, if Ben never did actually talk or even interact with Jacob ... Wouldn't that mean that someone else who CAN interact with Jacob filled Ben in on what Jacob's wants and desires for everyone would be?...
Richard ?

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 11:48:56 AM »
...
Lastly, if Ben never did actually talk or even interact with Jacob ... Wouldn't that mean that someone else who CAN interact with Jacob filled Ben in on what Jacob's wants and desires for everyone would be?...
Richard ?

Wouldnt that same person be told by Jacob "who's Ben, I never spoke to anyone named ben"?

Offline lovinlost

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 11:58:14 AM »
I have a feeling that MIB was the one Ben was really getting his marching orders from, but not that Ben KNEW it was MIB.  I believe both Locke AND Ben were being manipulated by MIB.  I really don't think Jacob was in that cabin when Locke and Ben went there in episode "The Man Behind the Curtain".  It was MIB.  He was trapped there.  He said, "Help me," to Locke.  The cinematography was similar to what we see when we hear whispers, or when Smokey shows up....all choppy.  There is ash around the cabin.  It was being used to keep MIB in the cabin.  This theory falls apart only with the problem that Smokey is seen on the island during this time.  I have no answer for that one yet!   :)

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 12:23:53 PM »
Maybe Ben was told to put the D.I. down in a dream. When Locke had the dream about Horace building the cabin, he woke up, and Ben told him, "I used to have dreams to."

Something that just occurred to me about the cabin, and the ring of ash. Maybe the person inside the cabin was this manifestation that came to Locke and told him "You can't kill him" in the episode "The Substitute".

Offline jamesl

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 01:56:55 PM »
... why Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben and his ability to kill (as Miles indicated), especially after seeing Ben orchestrate the massacre of all those innocent people and realizing he killed Locke as well (I'm assuming Jacob would have known that). ...

Jacob was not interested in whether or not Ben would kill others, he was only interested in whether or not Ben would kill him,
that's what Miles was talking about

would Ben follow Jacob ? or would he be tempted into killing him ?
Jacob thought Ben was "the one", the candidate, the one who would put the island and Jacob above all else

he knew Ben wasn't innocent and "good", but that's not important
only the island is important
and if Jacob has to make a plane crash and kill a few people just to get the candidates to the island, then he will

Jacob is not good. Why would he care if Ben is ?

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 02:29:28 PM »
... why Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben and his ability to kill (as Miles indicated), especially after seeing Ben orchestrate the massacre of all those innocent people and realizing he killed Locke as well (I'm assuming Jacob would have known that). ...

Jacob was not interested in whether or not Ben would kill others, he was only interested in whether or not Ben would kill him,
that's what Miles was talking about
Yeah, I have a problem with this lol. If you see someone orchestrating the deaths or directly killing dozens and dozens of people, why would you think "Ok, so he'll kill pretty much anyone who he feels needs to be dead for a variety of reasons...but will he kill ME, that's the question." I would think the obvious answer would be "Damn straight he will" lol :). Jacob should have been smarter than that. But then again, it almost seemed as if Jacob knew he'd be killed and allowed it to happen, so...


Quote
would Ben follow Jacob ? or would he be tempted into killing him ?
Jacob thought Ben was "the one", the candidate, the one who would put the island and Jacob above all else
And he did, even above his own daughter's life. Even above his own father's life (although we can understand why to an extent). Even above Horace's life, whom Ben seemed to truly like and respect. Even if it meant a massacre of people. So why would Jacob believe that saying something as insulting as "What about you?" to Ben when he's at a deeply emotional low point and knowing MIB had Ben there to kill him would be the best way of determining if Ben was 'the one', when all that other stuff didn't seem to be enough?


Quote
he knew Ben wasn't innocent and "good", but that's not important
only the island is important
and if Jacob has to make a plane crash and kill a few people just to get the candidates to the island, then he will

Jacob is not good. Why would he care if Ben is ?

Exactly...which contradicts what you said earlier lol. What would cause Ben to NOT kill Jacob after all the !#$! he's seen Ben go through and after basically insulting Ben to his face when he knows he's there to kill him? The goodness within Ben would be the ONLY thing that would stop him from killing Jacob at that point, much like it stopped him from killing Ilana.

Now, the ironic thing is, by allowing Ben to kill him, Jacob actually set Ben on a path to redemption...which might have been in his plan all along. There's a part within Jacob that hopes Ben can reach that redemption without needing to kill yet again, but he's willing to let Ben kill him knowing it will set Ben towards the destination he had planned for him. Which, if so, means Ben may play an extremely pivotal role in everything from here on out.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 02:30:23 PM »
I would speculate the hatred he had for his father, and the time he met richard in the forest, and Richard told him he could be with them but it would take time, So I think Richard had a reason also.

I wondered this as well. Richard seemed more than OK with the purge, so I always assumed he had his own reasons for seeing Dharma wiped out.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 02:37:07 PM »
Somebody refresh my memory: did Ben ever say why he ordered the purge of the Dharma people? I can't remember. Did he say it was on the orders of Jacob? We know now that if he did say that he was lying since Jacob never talked to him or interacted with him. But if that's the case, then I'm curious as to why Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben and his ability to kill (as Miles indicated), especially after seeing Ben orchestrate the massacre of all those innocent people and realizing he killed Locke as well (I'm assuming Jacob would have known that).

Also, was it ever said why Ben became the leader of the Others? I know Richard told Locke back in 1955 that there was a process to decide who should be the leader...was it ever explained what that process is? (I'm assuming not)

Lastly, if Ben never did actually talk or even interact with Jacob until the moment he killed him, why was Ben so obsessed with giving up everything in service of Jacob and protecting the island? Wouldn't that mean that someone else who CAN interact with Jacob filled Ben in on what Jacob's wants and desires for everyone would be? The thing is, though, Lost made it seem as if Ben used his alleged power to talk to and with Jacob to manipulate himself into power. But if he was told about Jacob by someone else, wouldn't that "someone else" be able to tell all the Others that Ben is lying about talking to Jacob?

At the Dharmagrave with Hurley and Locke, Ben told that he was not in charge at the time of the purge. Widmore was the leader.
Widmore left the island after the purge, when the others allready came to stay in Dharmatown. Richard said there can only be one leader at the time. I think that as soon as Widmore became the leader Eloise left, as soon as Ben became the leader Widmore left, as soon as Locke became the leader Ben left. (And soon they will all be on the island together.)

I think Ben giving up everything in service of Jacob and protecting the island is the religious theme in Lost, Richard said he did the same.
It is like following every religion, people believe and some live in service of a man they never saw and are sure to know what he wants from them and they follow his lists (Bible, Koran, Thora) without questioning them, because if it's written there it is good. That is believing. On the other hand there is science, where people only believe what is tested and proven right and don't take anything for granted. Like Jack when seeing Christian thinks he is tired and hallucinating or ill, but will never just assume and accept he saw his dead father, because there is no scientific proof that there is life after dead or that body and soul are separate things. I think Ben believed in Jacob and the island and he still does. He stayed with Ilana.
Maybe he will change his mind when MIB promises him to get Alex back. And I think Jack needs to believe in souls.

Offline nomteticus

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 06:37:22 PM »
Ben was not even a full member of the Others when the Purge happened. He was just one of their inside men (along with Ethan and who knows who else; boy, I guess Ethan really hated his parents, btw!). The Purge was all Widmore, unless Jacob somehow gave the order.

As for the process of electing leaders and their knowledge and purpose, I'm really hoping Ab Aeterno will shed some light on that, since The Black Rock's arrival seems to coincide with the genesis of "The Others". I am really hoping for a long and revealing Jacob-Richard conversation, where they lay all the cards on the table (and since Richie doesn't know about the Candidates, this new info would not spoil the remaining episodes, since there will still be a lot to explain).

Offline jamesl

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2010, 12:00:33 AM »
... why Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben and his ability to kill (as Miles indicated), especially after seeing Ben orchestrate the massacre of all those innocent people and realizing he killed Locke as well (I'm assuming Jacob would have known that). ...

Jacob was not interested in whether or not Ben would kill others, he was only interested in whether or not Ben would kill him,
that's what Miles was talking about
Yeah, I have a problem with this lol. If you see someone orchestrating the deaths or directly killing dozens and dozens of people, why would you think "Ok, so he'll kill pretty much anyone who he feels needs to be dead for a variety of reasons...but will he kill ME, that's the question." I would think the obvious answer would be "Damn straight he will" lol :). Jacob should have been smarter than that. But then again, it almost seemed as if Jacob knew he'd be killed and allowed it to happen, so...


Quote
would Ben follow Jacob ? or would he be tempted into killing him ?
Jacob thought Ben was "the one", the candidate, the one who would put the island and Jacob above all else
And he did, even above his own daughter's life. Even above his own father's life (although we can understand why to an extent). Even above Horace's life, whom Ben seemed to truly like and respect. Even if it meant a massacre of people. So why would Jacob believe that saying something as insulting as "What about you?" to Ben when he's at a deeply emotional low point and knowing MIB had Ben there to kill him would be the best way of determining if Ben was 'the one', when all that other stuff didn't seem to be enough?


Quote
he knew Ben wasn't innocent and "good", but that's not important
only the island is important
and if Jacob has to make a plane crash and kill a few people just to get the candidates to the island, then he will

Jacob is not good. Why would he care if Ben is ?

Exactly...which contradicts what you said earlier lol. What would cause Ben to NOT kill Jacob after all the !#$! he's seen Ben go through and after basically insulting Ben to his face when he knows he's there to kill him? The goodness within Ben would be the ONLY thing that would stop him from killing Jacob at that point, much like it stopped him from killing Ilana.

Now, the ironic thing is, by allowing Ben to kill him, Jacob actually set Ben on a path to redemption...which might have been in his plan all along. There's a part within Jacob that hopes Ben can reach that redemption without needing to kill yet again, but he's willing to let Ben kill him knowing it will set Ben towards the destination he had planned for him. Which, if so, means Ben may play an extremely pivotal role in everything from here on out.

so Ben was willing to put his daughter, his father and Horace all 2nd to the island
but "what about you ? "
would you be willing to put yourself 2nd to the island ?
that's the question
if the island (Jacob) asked you to step aside, to give up your power, would you do it ?
or are your wants for yourself more than what the island wants ?

this is where Ben failed
yes, he was willing to sacrifice everyone else, but he was not willing to sacrifice himself
when Jacob said, "what about you"
Ben answered, "no, I will not follow you anymore !" (not with words, but with actions)

I'm not contradicting myself here at all
you just don't understand me
Jacob wasn't counting on a remnant of Ben's goodness to stop him from killing him, as you said, why would he ? He knew Ben was a mass murderer
what he was counting on was Ben's willingness to sacrifice everything for the island
so far Ben had been willing to sacrifice everything dear to him, but would he sacrifice himself, "what about you ?"
that's why Jacob asked that when Ben was at a deeply emotional low point

he was hoping Ben would make the ultimate sacrifice and say, "yes, you're right, what about me. my needs are not important. only the island's needs are important. you are the leader of the island. I will follow you no matter what. I will not be talked into disobeying you"

it was the final test, and Ben failed
 


Offline ericd543

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2010, 12:37:43 AM »
I'm not sure who to quote, it's all good stuff, so I'm just going to throw in my 2 cents worth.

There's a parallel with how Ben got Widmore to leave the island, he called Widmore on breaking a rule (having a child off the island), and then calling Principal Reynolds on his sexual indiscretion. In once case he became leader of the island, and he shouldn't have. Widmore says to Ben at the dock, "if you're wrong, and the island wants her dead. She'll be dead." and of course Alex died in that timeline. As we saw in Dr. Linus ben did not follow through on his power play and Alex, who was like a daughter to him, was spared Reynolds threat of getting torched.

I'm thinking Ben was not supposed to take over as leader of the others. It was a mistake. Ben didn't know what he was doing. he was faking it and telling people he was talking to Jacob when really he wasn't. Locke told Ben once (Man from Talahasse?) that he was "doing it wrong" by using the Dharma housing and tech. I got the impression Locke was more in tune with Widmore's leadership of the others -- living in yurts and living the simple life.

I think MIB is a trickster. He manipulated Ben to take over from Widmore as leader and Ben was not qualified. That left the others basically leaderless. MiB tricked Richard into thinking it was okay for Ben to become leader. MiB tricked Richard too. Maybe that's what Richard learned in Dr. Linus episode which made him change his tune so radically from telling Sawyer last week "come the Jacob's temple, that guy wants to destroy us all" to this week when he's all rattled about Jacob being dead and so he tries to kill himself. Richard realizes now that he was tricked. Locke was brought to the island by Jacob, but Locke was tricked by MiB too (posing as Christian) into going back, killing himself, and getting the O6 to come back, just so MiB could come back. Locke was just the guy he was looking for. Locke thought he was protecting the island for jacob, but he wasn't.

Also, when did we start assuming that Jacob's touch is the touch of destiny?  I'm familiar with all of the visual clues we've been given, but I'm gonna have to go back and see what was said. What if was more like the touch of "you have a choice" or "you have what it takes" ? I'm trying to work this into my theory on battling philosophies. lol

It would follow from this train (wreck?) of thought that MiB tricked Ben into doing the purge. It seems like the kind of thing MiB would ask someone to do to get "whatever you want in the world". Ben wanted to be principal, I mean leader of the others, he got the info about Widmore's indiscretion from MiB or another one of MiB's manipulated minions and used it in his Machiavellian power play. MiB wanted the purge to happen to further his plan on separating Ben from Jacob, setting him up with lots of lists and tasks and unpleasant S4 and S5 stuff so Ben, when he finally does meet Jacob asks, "What about me?". The look on Ben's face makes when he see's dead Locke's body convinced me that he was indeed surprised.

I'm not sure why Richard didn't know that Ben was straying so far from Jacob's plan. I probably wouldn't believe it if he told me.  Widmore returning to the island will be interesting to say the least. Poor Ben. I'm definitely rooting for him now, but Widmore has a point, don't be leader if you don't have what it takes.

EDIT: am doing some research to firm this up, like when Hurley visited the cabin and possilbly tripped and broke the ring of ash, which would 'splain when MiB got out, maybe MiB was not smokey until then? also will post the scene where Locke tells Ben "you're doing it wrong" (paraphrasing), I already have the scene up on YouTube where Ben talks to Widmore at the dock, and also the one where Ben visits Widmore in his bedroom and they discuss who broke the rules, etc.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 12:59:04 AM by ericd543 »

Offline ericd543

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2010, 05:14:28 AM »
Maybe Ben was told to put the D.I. down in a dream. When Locke had the dream about Horace building the cabin, he woke up, and Ben told him, "I used to have dreams to."

In the scene where Ben visits Widmore in his bedroom, he asks him "when did you start sleeping with a bottle of Scotch by the bed?' and Widmore replies, "When the nightmares started."

I posted a couple more scenes on youtube.

313 - Locke tells Ben that he's doing it wrong. -- YouTube clip

Quote from: Lostpedia description of Man from Tallahassee
Locke asks where the electricity comes from and Ben makes a joke about hamsters. Ben tries to convince Locke to leave the submarine  alone, that destroying it would give him "a big problem with [his] people." He says that he was born on the Island but many of the Others weren't, and that the submarine helps them to remain committed to being on the Island (because they don't feel trapped on the island as long as they have a means to leave). Ben promises to show Locke "things he wants to see very badly." He tells Locke to imagine that the Island contains a "very large box" that can manifest anything one wishes for. Locke sarcastically suggests Ben should wish for a new submarine. He says Ben is a hypocrite for using electricity and guns. Ben asks how Locke thinks he knows the Island better than he does, and Locke replies, "because you're in the wheelchair and I'm not."

Locke also calls Ben a Pharisee. In using this term, Locke is claiming that Ben is not practicing an authentic spirituality. He is claiming that Ben and the Others have become self-righteous, arrogant and powerful. They live a life of comforts off the remains of the Dharma Initiative while not doing what Locke thinks is their religious duty to the Island, in the same way the historical Pharisees self-righteously preached biblical law but did not obey it.

401- Beginning of the End - Hurley gets separated from the group and finds the cabin in the jungle. -- YouTube clip

I noticed a couple of closeups on Hurley's feet, indicating, tho not showing that he may have broken the ring of ash that encircles the cabin.



Offline LovDom

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2010, 09:10:58 AM »
Smokey used to be free, Danielle saw him and avoided him where he roamed, Le Territoire FoncÚ, for over 16 years. Then the Losties land and he goes harassing them. Jacob got word of this and locked him up in the cabin which used to be his. Fact, Smokey is stopped by ash which was around the cabin. And now he is free again. When we second saw the cabin there was Christian and Claire, which are both Smokey followers.

I think Ben was used by Smokey, being that Smokey saved him from the mercenaries. Smokey could have been his mother when he saw her on the island, making Richard believe that he was somehow special. Ben sees his mother, that could be either some special power or a trick. Ben kept thinking he received orders from Jacob, but actually it was Smokey. Jacob didn't bother because he liked the way this was going?

There could also be two Smokies, because Ben went into a secret tunnel, and then Smokey appeared. Thus controlling Smokey. Perhaps there is an evil and a good one? 

Furthermore I think Smokey picked John Locke a long, long while ago. When they went boar hunting, when he saw Smokey. And later explained it as "I looked into the eye of this island and what I saw was beautiful"