Damn, Richard!

[CaseyMac]

I am totally into the theory that Richard was a slave (in chains) on the Black Rock and was freed and given a gift by Jacob, but what I dont buy into is why the hell he suddenly starts taking orders from young Ben?
After all, he says he has been there longer than we can imagine, Ben meanwhile in contrast has been there 2 minutes, so is this purely upon Jacobs orders? If so, I am not surprised he is pissed with big J!

So what do we know? Before Ben was shot by Sayid Widmore and Hawkins were running the camp, Richard was basically a go between for Widmore and even got a rollocking of CW for taking Ben to the temple to be healed, so was Dogen Charles' replacement on the Island? Or was it Ben?

Sheesh this get more confusing the more I think about it!

See, I originally hought Richard latched onto Ben because he (Ben) could see ghosts. At that time in the series, it was sort of implied that "Jacob" (or whoever was in the shack) was a ghost (Ben talking to empty chair, but then "Help me" and the flash of an image). Richard seemed to take an interest in Ben when he heard that Ben saw his dead mother. So I thought maybe they needed someone to communicate with this "ghost" and here comes Ben. But now we know that Jacob was in fact a real person who could be killed, not a ghost so it doesn't add up (but nor does the whole "shack" thing....if that was really Jacob, why did he say "help me?" He appeared to be freely moving about the island and off, so that whole thing doesn't make sense...).

I am at a loss as to how Ben rose to power, unless Jacob had something to do with it.

I think that Richard and his people were waiting for a prophecy to be fulfilled.  They seem to be expecting a leader/savior who recovered from an apparently mortal wound, who can comminucate with the dead, and who killed his own father.  The Purge may have been engineered by Richard et al to force a fulfillment of prophecy or to test Ben's fitness to be the leader/savior.  When Ben tried to get Locke to kill Cooper it might have been a test to see if Locke is The One.  That explains Ben's announcement to the Others that "He isn't who we thought he is" when Locke initially refused to kill Cooper.  Several of the candidates fall into at least one of those catagories.

You know, S.O.L., that is a really interesting theory. When you think about it, Jack indirectly had a part in his father's death too. Maybe there is some sort of prophecy we will hear about.

[Sweet Old Lady]

I am totally into the theory that Richard was a slave (in chains) on the Black Rock and was freed and given a gift by Jacob, but what I dont buy into is why the hell he suddenly starts taking orders from young Ben?
After all, he says he has been there longer than we can imagine, Ben meanwhile in contrast has been there 2 minutes, so is this purely upon Jacobs orders? If so, I am not surprised he is pissed with big J!

So what do we know? Before Ben was shot by Sayid Widmore and Hawkins were running the camp, Richard was basically a go between for Widmore and even got a rollocking of CW for taking Ben to the temple to be healed, so was Dogen Charles' replacement on the Island? Or was it Ben?

Sheesh this get more confusing the more I think about it!

See, I originally hought Richard latched onto Ben because he (Ben) could see ghosts. At that time in the series, it was sort of implied that "Jacob" (or whoever was in the shack) was a ghost (Ben talking to empty chair, but then "Help me" and the flash of an image). Richard seemed to take an interest in Ben when he heard that Ben saw his dead mother. So I thought maybe they needed someone to communicate with this "ghost" and here comes Ben. But now we know that Jacob was in fact a real person who could be killed, not a ghost so it doesn't add up (but nor does the whole "shack" thing....if that was really Jacob, why did he say "help me?" He appeared to be freely moving about the island and off, so that whole thing doesn't make sense...).

I am at a loss as to how Ben rose to power, unless Jacob had something to do with it.

I think that Richard and his people were waiting for a prophecy to be fulfilled.  They seem to be expecting a leader/savior who recovered from an apparently mortal wound, who can comminucate with the dead, and who killed his own father.  The Purge may have been engineered by Richard et al to force a fulfillment of prophecy or to test Ben's fitness to be the leader/savior.  When Ben tried to get Locke to kill Cooper it might have been a test to see if Locke is The One.  That explains Ben's announcement to the Others that "He isn't who we thought he is" when Locke initially refused to kill Cooper.  Several of the candidates fall into at least one of those catagories.

You know, S.O.L., that is a really interesting theory. When you think about it, Jack indirectly had a part in his father's death too. Maybe there is some sort of prophecy we will hear about.

Maybe the prophecy is about betraying one's own father instead of actually killing him.  That would include Sun and Jin.  Jin's betrayal took the form of denying his father.  Jack betrayed his dad when he caused him to be fired from his position at the hospital when he revealed that Christian was operating drunk.  I've elaborated on this and posted it under http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10146.msg610171.html#msg610171

[FireLily]

Guys, this is just one more of those things that I have been talking about that you can't look too deeply into with this season. They aren't making it too difficult for us here. When Locke said to Richard that he was "glad to see him out of those chains", they weren't talking metaphorically. BUT, for the people that were still on the fence, they show us this episode with Richard, standing in the Black Rock, looking at the manicles/shackles/CHAINS, and he says that he came her on the ship, and hasn't been back since. I really don't think TPTB can make it any more clear.

BUT, obviously there is a really good chance I'm wrong. We will all find out in 2 weeks when we get the Richard episode. I really would like to give you, and everyone else, a little piece of advice though. This kind of over thinking is the stuff that is going to make the series finale feel unfulfilling. Once you start imagining all this stuff weaved into the bare facts they have given us, you make it way more built up then it has to be. And because it's all your own creation, it will never be addressed, and then you will be pissed. Trust me, I've done it to myself a million times.

Agreed, on all counts.   

[LostinLock]

Oh, I see what you're saying there, well, I guess you could kind of take what he said a few different ways. Like, maybe he was kind of saying it as a smart a$$ remark as if to say, "If I told you I came from a pirate ship, you wouldn't believe me." OR he was thinking that if he told them he just came from the temple and everyone was dead, they wouldn't believe him. It could be interpreted a few ways, but I think you shouldn't over think it.

The last time we saw him, he was talking to Sawyer and then he took off running through the jungle, presumably towards the temple. Then the next time we see him, he is running through the jungle. I don't think he like time traveled, or went through an alternate reality or anything like that. Just do what I have been doing this season, and accept what they tell you/show you. You will be able to enjoy it so much more.

Oh Bob you are in my head to much I love it.  I am thinking does much of this bs matter?

I think his answer (you wouldn't believe me) was the writers' way of stalling, moving the scene without having to give us any answers just yet.  If Jack hadn't asked, we'd be screaming 'Why wasn't Jack curious about where this guy popped up from?'  So he asked and got sidestepped for the moment.

As to whether Richard can also become a 'smoke entity', I think if he could, he would have used that to avoid or get away from MIB and he certainly wouldn't have been trapped in that tarp for too long!

Yes absolutely

[thebeann]

Interesting. Kate killed her father. Sawyer's dad killed himself. But Hugo's dad is alive and well. Blows that theory.

[Sweet Old Lady]

Interesting. Kate killed her father. Sawyer's dad killed himself. But Hugo's dad is alive and well. Blows that theory.

I beg to differ.  All it means is that Hugo isn't The One.  My theory is about Richard's people waiting for a prophecy to be fulfilled, not about who fulfills it.  The fact that Hurley's dad is alive doesn't prove that there was no prophecy.

[BobBX542]

Oh, I see what you're saying there, well, I guess you could kind of take what he said a few different ways. Like, maybe he was kind of saying it as a smart a$$ remark as if to say, "If I told you I came from a pirate ship, you wouldn't believe me." OR he was thinking that if he told them he just came from the temple and everyone was dead, they wouldn't believe him. It could be interpreted a few ways, but I think you shouldn't over think it.

The last time we saw him, he was talking to Sawyer and then he took off running through the jungle, presumably towards the temple. Then the next time we see him, he is running through the jungle. I don't think he like time traveled, or went through an alternate reality or anything like that. Just do what I have been doing this season, and accept what they tell you/show you. You will be able to enjoy it so much more.

Oh Bob you are in my head to much I love it.  I am thinking does much of this bs matter?

Well, it could have been a valid question a few seasons ago if one of the others just popped out of the woods as if by magic...OH SNAP!! IT DID!! Remember when Harper just appeared in the woods in S4E6 (The Other Woman)?? Now that was a genuine mystery. She's not there, whisperwhisperwhisper, she's there, whisperwhisperwhisper, she's not there. I would STILL like to know how that happened. Richard, not so much.

[lostfan777]

I think that Richard and his people were waiting for a prophecy to be fulfilled.  They seem to be expecting a leader/savior who recovered from an apparently mortal wound, who can comminucate with the dead, and who killed his own father.  The Purge may have been engineered by Richard et al to force a fulfillment of prophecy or to test Ben's fitness to be the leader/savior.  When Ben tried to get Locke to kill Cooper it might have been a test to see if Locke is The One.  That explains Ben's announcement to the Others that "He isn't who we thought he is" when Locke initially refused to kill Cooper.  Several of the candidates fall into at least one of those catagories.

I love the prophecy angle.  The story line of Ben challenging Locke to kill his father was very odd.  There was also the time Richard tells Locke that the others were staring at him because they were excited that 'there was a man with a broken spine on the plane who could suddenly walk'.  Could this have been part of the prophecy also?  My only problem is that none of the candidates seem to fit the role yet.  Jack didn't kill his dad, he got him fired.  It may have led to his death, but that doesn't sound like a 'prophecy fulfilling act'.  Kate didn't kill her dad, she killed her step-dad, right?  Locke didn't kill his dad, either, he had Sawyer do it.  Sawyer's dad killed himself.

I just posted in another thread that I felt Ben was on his way back from the bottom and will find redemption by sacrificing himself for the island and its' new leader.  But if this prophecy angle has merit, Ben is the only one who has killed his own father, AND, while he didn't miraculously recover from a broken back, get out of a wheelchair and walk, he did have a tumor growing on his spine that would have killed him until a spinal surgeon miraculously fell from the sky!  Maybe ben will have his island back after all....

[Suzanne4au2]

I really hope they address the comment Richard made about "seeing all of them die". This has been bugging me since he said it and I would love to know what he meant by that.

[Sweet Old Lady]

I think that Richard and his people were waiting for a prophecy to be fulfilled.  They seem to be expecting a leader/savior who recovered from an apparently mortal wound, who can comminucate with the dead, and who killed his own father.  The Purge may have been engineered by Richard et al to force a fulfillment of prophecy or to test Ben's fitness to be the leader/savior.  When Ben tried to get Locke to kill Cooper it might have been a test to see if Locke is The One.  That explains Ben's announcement to the Others that "He isn't who we thought he is" when Locke initially refused to kill Cooper.  Several of the candidates fall into at least one of those catagories.

I love the prophecy angle.  The story line of Ben challenging Locke to kill his father was very odd.  There was also the time Richard tells Locke that the others were staring at him because they were excited that 'there was a man with a broken spine on the plane who could suddenly walk'.  Could this have been part of the prophecy also?  My only problem is that none of the candidates seem to fit the role yet.  Jack didn't kill his dad, he got him fired.  It may have led to his death, but that doesn't sound like a 'prophecy fulfilling act'.  Kate didn't kill her dad, she killed her step-dad, right?  Locke didn't kill his dad, either, he had Sawyer do it.  Sawyer's dad killed himself.

I just posted in another thread that I felt Ben was on his way back from the bottom and will find redemption by sacrificing himself for the island and its' new leader.  But if this prophecy angle has merit, Ben is the only one who has killed his own father, AND, while he didn't miraculously recover from a broken back, get out of a wheelchair and walk, he did have a tumor growing on his spine that would have killed him until a spinal surgeon miraculously fell from the sky!  Maybe ben will have his island back after all....

I posted elsewhere that Ben is a very good candidate and may end up being The One.  His mortal wound was when he was a child and Sayid shot him.  He was healed in the temple and Richard's people made it happen.  I'm sure there is a prophecy but I'm only guessing what it says based on the Other Others' interests.  Kate killed her biological father who wasn't married to her mother at the time she was conceived.  I'm getting excited about the possibilities for the endgame.

[CaseyMac]

I really hope they address the comment Richard made about "seeing all of them die". This has been bugging me since he said it and I would love to know what he meant by that.

I'd like that to be more clear too. Right now, I'm kinda assuming he had a vantage point of the Swan Incident, saw some sort of flash then everyone disappear, and just assumed they died.

[opgelost]

When Richard visited Locke at his birth in cabin fever, before we knew that they travelled through time
I thought Richard was looking for a boy, born 2 months too early who had a mother named Emily and
that he went to see Locke at birth and when he was 6. But Locke chose the wrong items, so Richard went for Ben
to discover 40 years later that he made a mistake and John was the one he needed.

I dropped that thought when later they began timetravelling and we discovered that Richard was at John's birth,
because John visited him in 1954 and made Richard think that he was special, but he was not special, he was
"just" travelling through time.

But now we know that Locke was send to 1954 by MIB to con Richard into believing that Locke was special and
knew Jacob so that Richard would bring him (or who he thought was him) to Jacob 50 years later.

Maybe it is a prophecy.

[thebeann]

When Richard visited Locke at his birth in cabin fever, before we knew that they travelled through time
I thought Richard was looking for a boy, born 2 months too early who had a mother named Emily and
that he went to see Locke at birth and when he was 6. But Locke chose the wrong items, so Richard went for Ben
to discover 40 years later that he made a mistake and John was the one he needed.

I dropped that thought when later they began timetravelling and we discovered that Richard was at John's birth,
because John visited him in 1954 and made Richard think that he was special, but he was not special, he was
"just" travelling through time.

But now we know that Locke was send to 1954 by MIB to con Richard into believing that Locke was special and
knew Jacob so that Richard would bring him (or who he thought was him) to Jacob 50 years later.

Maybe it is a prophecy.

What did I miss? How did MIB send Locke back to 1954? I thought he just landed there in the time flashes.

I need a flowchart! :-)

[CaseyMac]

When Richard visited Locke at his birth in cabin fever, before we knew that they travelled through time
I thought Richard was looking for a boy, born 2 months too early who had a mother named Emily and
that he went to see Locke at birth and when he was 6. But Locke chose the wrong items, so Richard went for Ben
to discover 40 years later that he made a mistake and John was the one he needed.

I dropped that thought when later they began timetravelling and we discovered that Richard was at John's birth,
because John visited him in 1954 and made Richard think that he was special, but he was not special, he was
"just" travelling through time.

But now we know that Locke was send to 1954 by MIB to con Richard into believing that Locke was special and
knew Jacob so that Richard would bring him (or who he thought was him) to Jacob 50 years later.

Maybe it is a prophecy.

What did I miss? How did MIB send Locke back to 1954? I thought he just landed there in the time flashes.

I need a flowchart! :-)

MIB took Richard, with his paradox compass, to Locke in 2007 at the Beechcraft, so Richard could give the compass to John to give back to Richard back in 1954 as proof. MIB was sort of pulling the strings of the whole thing because he seemed to be the only one who knew the right timing of Locke's time flash to 2007.

A flowchart would be way helpful...but I can just imagine how convoluted it would be lol.

[Numbers Junkie]

When Richard visited Locke at his birth in cabin fever, before we knew that they travelled through time
I thought Richard was looking for a boy, born 2 months too early who had a mother named Emily and
that he went to see Locke at birth and when he was 6. But Locke chose the wrong items, so Richard went for Ben
to discover 40 years later that he made a mistake and John was the one he needed.

I dropped that thought when later they began timetravelling and we discovered that Richard was at John's birth,
because John visited him in 1954 and made Richard think that he was special, but he was not special, he was
"just" travelling through time.

But now we know that Locke was send to 1954 by MIB to con Richard into believing that Locke was special and
knew Jacob so that Richard would bring him (or who he thought was him) to Jacob 50 years later.

Maybe it is a prophecy.

Which is why Richard was suspect of Locke the whole time.
I still think that Richard knows the most and will reveal the most as to what is going on.
Ab Aeterno!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9egLvSEL_EM
she seems to recognize him and he knows it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmKcKiz05Ns&feature=related

A famous scene.


Locke's smokey drawing too!
The comic of hidden land! (the island)

Richard seemed pretty upset about Locke choosing the knife...

Such a great scene!

Also, Locke is playing backgammon and Richard notes it, that has been a theme all along since season 1 ,dark and light, 2 sides, Jacob and MIB! There is a scene (in season 1) with Locke explaining the game to Walt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn-g8OmkEIE

What a chilling scene now that we know what we know...so good, one of my favorites of the show!!!

I miss Walt, I hope he comes back to play a role, but I don't think so. He and Locke have such a good relationship. It could make sense.