Author Topic: Ben, The Purge, The Others  (Read 5775 times)

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2010, 09:58:43 PM »
Smokey used to be free, Danielle saw him and avoided him where he roamed, Le Territoire FoncÚ, for over 16 years. Then the Losties land and he goes harassing them. Jacob got word of this and locked him up in the cabin which used to be his. Fact, Smokey is stopped by ash which was around the cabin. And now he is free again. When we second saw the cabin there was Christian and Claire, which are both Smokey followers.

I think Ben was used by Smokey, being that Smokey saved him from the mercenaries. Smokey could have been his mother when he saw her on the island, making Richard believe that he was somehow special. Ben sees his mother, that could be either some special power or a trick. Ben kept thinking he received orders from Jacob, but actually it was Smokey. Jacob didn't bother because he liked the way this was going?

There could also be two Smokies, because Ben went into a secret tunnel, and then Smokey appeared. Thus controlling Smokey. Perhaps there is an evil and a good one? 

Furthermore I think Smokey picked John Locke a long, long while ago. When they went boar hunting, when he saw Smokey. And later explained it as "I looked into the eye of this island and what I saw was beautiful"

We have seen Ben Call Smokey

Offline LouE68

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2010, 11:49:14 PM »
Back in the 50's Widmore seemed to have a standing order to kill anyone that came to the island, was that just him? or was that from Jacob?
ben also killed everyone that came to the island, he told Ethan and goodwin to "make" lists...he then picked who he wanted to keep, there is no evidence that jacob wanted cyndie or the kids at this time...or anyone elese for that matter...so I'm assuming that the standing order is still to kill anyone that comes to the island...where ever that came from.
So if the jack and the others are candidates for jacobs position...does that mean they should have been told to the Others that they were welcome, dont kill them...NO!
Its all about faith and destiny...so if they made it past all the others, then maybe they are qualified candidates..of course now WE know about the list of jacob...and so do some of our Losties, but does that mean they know now that they are special..well barely...remember they dont see what all we see...and know...

So basically jacob has his group of followers/protectors, but he doesnt tell tehm he is bringing people to the island....which is understandable, he cant let MiB know who is a candidate and who isnt and what their purpose is....

Offline jkbeaulieu

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2010, 10:32:50 AM »
This may already be out there and if so, apologies.  But perhaps Jacob had nothing to do with the purge.  What if it was Smokey in the form of Richard that convinced Ben to purge the DI.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 11:14:04 AM »
Maybe Ben was told to put the D.I. down in a dream. When Locke had the dream about Horace building the cabin, he woke up, and Ben told him, "I used to have dreams to."

In the scene where Ben visits Widmore in his bedroom, he asks him "when did you start sleeping with a bottle of Scotch by the bed?' and Widmore replies, "When the nightmares started."

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. What does one thing have to do with the other??

Offline jkbeaulieu

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2010, 02:33:51 PM »
And what if it was Smokey in the form of Richard that convinced Locke he would have to "die" for the island.  Is it assumed that Smokey can only take the form of dead people or is that a proven part of the mythology?

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2010, 03:35:04 PM »
And what if it was Smokey in the form of Richard that convinced Locke he would have to "die" for the island.  Is it assumed that Smokey can only take the form of dead people or is that a proven part of the mythology?

It wasn't, they established in many different shots that Richard is Richard. MIB told Richard to tell Locke that he needs to die, that is the full extent of Smokey's manipulation in that scene.

Offline zeekloveslost

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2010, 06:06:10 PM »
Somebody refresh my memory: did Ben ever say why he ordered the purge of the Dharma people? I can't remember. Did he say it was on the orders of Jacob? We know now that if he did say that he was lying since Jacob never talked to him or interacted with him. But if that's the case, then I'm curious as to why Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben and his ability to kill (as Miles indicated), especially after seeing Ben orchestrate the massacre of all those innocent people and realizing he killed Locke as well (I'm assuming Jacob would have known that).

Also, was it ever said why Ben became the leader of the Others? I know Richard told Locke back in 1955 that there was a process to decide who should be the leader...was it ever explained what that process is? (I'm assuming not)

Lastly, if Ben never did actually talk or even interact with Jacob until the moment he killed him, why was Ben so obsessed with giving up everything in service of Jacob and protecting the island? Wouldn't that mean that someone else who CAN interact with Jacob filled Ben in on what Jacob's wants and desires for everyone would be? The thing is, though, Lost made it seem as if Ben used his alleged power to talk to and with Jacob to manipulate himself into power. But if he was told about Jacob by someone else, wouldn't that "someone else" be able to tell all the Others that Ben is lying about talking to Jacob?

No guesses here, just answers to your question.
First, it is never stated who ordered the purge. Widmore was the leader at the time though. However, Ben takes responsibility in this statement from "Through the Looking glass": "Not so long ago, Jack. I made a decision, that took the lives of over forty people in a single day." BUT also stated that the Purge "wasn't (his) decision" because he answered to someone.

We are also never explicitly told when or why Ben became a leader of the Others. But it appears to be when Widmore was exiled, as Richard comes to Ben to tell him that Widmore is at the dock getting ready to leave.

I think the other people answered the other questions pretty well. If it is the case that Ben never heard or saw anyone, well, many devote their lives to someone they have never seen or heard. It's called faith.  If Ben did hear or see someone, we don't know for sure if it was Jacob or someone else like the MIB.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2010, 07:04:01 PM »
I think the other people answered the other questions pretty well. If it is the case that Ben never heard or saw anyone, well, many devote their lives to someone they have never seen or heard. It's called faith.  If Ben did hear or see someone, we don't know for sure if it was Jacob or someone else like the MIB.

But we've been shown that Ben absolutely believed in whatever he was lead to believe about Jacob...I'm trying to figure out how he learned about Jacob and how he became so obsessed in living his life in complete submission to Jacob. Someone like Richard I can see, since he actually interacted with Jacob and saw a small sample of his power by not aging over the centuries. How did Ben become so immersed in the Jacob lore and belief while still living among the Dharma folk? Was he brainwashed? Was it a result of being "healed" in the temple after Sayid shot him as a kid? Some internal knowledge of Jacob resulted that Ben couldn't fully explain or understand, maybe?

From what I can recall, Lost has only revealed Ben to use Jacob in a manipulative way, much like those sham tv evangelists tend to use God and religion to fool their followers. But you'll find that any sham religious leader does NOT actually have much faith or truly believe...they only use an alleged faith as a means to an end to gain power and money. Ben really DID believe, though, so he actually was NOT just using other people's belief in Jacob to gain money and power. What was that belief based on?

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2010, 07:09:13 PM »
Oh, and that "list" that Michael was given, with the names of Jack, Hurley, Kate and Sawyer on it. The belief was that it was Jacob's list. Since we now know that Jacob never communicated directly with Ben, what if it was MIB's list with MIB posing as "someone" (Ben's mother?) and directing Ben that way? Or did Ben see the Cave O' Names and make the list from that?

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2010, 07:48:46 PM »
No guesses here, just answers to your question.
First, it is never stated who ordered the purge. Widmore was the leader at the time though. However, Ben takes responsibility in this statement from "Through the Looking glass": "Not so long ago, Jack. I made a decision, that took the lives of over forty people in a single day." BUT also stated that the Purge "wasn't (his) decision" because he answered to someone.

It always struck me that Ben's cooperation was the lynchpin to the Purge's success. Which means to me that he had to choose between cooperating or not. There was probably some nasty option, like perhaps having to sacrifice Alex or the girl that made the wood doll for him (I forget her name at the moment...and everyother time I try to remember her name) or take part in the purge. Of course Ben always could have been lying about the decision being his to make just so he could make Jack think he was more powerful than he really was.

Offline laklost

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2010, 11:06:23 PM »
I don't think Locke was talking about Smokey when he said said he saw the beautiful eye of the island.  I am still holding out for a beatific vision. 

Offline bfth

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2010, 09:27:48 AM »
I don't think Locke was talking about Smokey when he said said he saw the beautiful eye of the island.  I am still holding out for a beatific vision. 

I think it WAS Smokey...showing Locke what he thought/knew Locke wanted to see.

Offline trodge

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2010, 09:13:07 PM »
I have a feeling that MIB was the one Ben was really getting his marching orders from, but not that Ben KNEW it was MIB.  I believe both Locke AND Ben were being manipulated by MIB.  I really don't think Jacob was in that cabin when Locke and Ben went there in episode "The Man Behind the Curtain".  It was MIB.  He was trapped there.  He said, "Help me," to Locke.  The cinematography was similar to what we see when we hear whispers, or when Smokey shows up....all choppy.  There is ash around the cabin.  It was being used to keep MIB in the cabin.  This theory falls apart only with the problem that Smokey is seen on the island during this time.  I have no answer for that one yet!   :)

I agree with this totally, killing off Dharma seems very MIBish...plus the fact that this figure said help me and it turns out MIB shapeshifts into Locke. 

Offline ericd543

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Re: Ben, The Purge, The Others
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2010, 08:32:09 PM »
Maybe Ben was told to put the D.I. down in a dream. When Locke had the dream about Horace building the cabin, he woke up, and Ben told him, "I used to have dreams to."

In the scene where Ben visits Widmore in his bedroom, he asks him "when did you start sleeping with a bottle of Scotch by the bed?' and Widmore replies, "When the nightmares started."

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. What does one thing have to do with the other??

I was just adding to your idea that dreams are important. I guess I didn't really tie it back to the subject of the purge and the others.

The scene you mentioned where Ben says "I used to have dreams" has always stuck with me. I wonder if any of them are dreaming on the island besides Locke. I looked up dreams on Lostpedia and there are a lot more references there than I thought there would be, but many of them are visions and halucinations, which I think are different than dreaming. If I have a waking hallucination of seeing my dead father walk into the jungle, I consider that a much different experience than having a dream about it.

Basically, I'm with ya. I think dreams, or the lack thereof, are significant. I don't know in what way yet. Maybe it will have something to do with all those closeups of characters opening their eyes.

EDIT: Maybe Hurley's recent dreaming of cheese curds is significant, since Locke is gone he's the special one now.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 09:40:11 PM by ericd543 »