Author Topic: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech  (Read 5777 times)

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 04:54:08 PM »
We think Jacob could be Good or Holy...and some of us say how? How can a good man let others die? How can a good man seemingly order the deaths of people or let them commit acts of violence in his name?

But that is what happens. I guess these questions will be answered when we realize exactly what Jacob and MIB really are?

You know, that is one of those fundamental faith questions: Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why are we all here? What is the meaning of life? etc.

Most world religions answer it in a similar way in that it is all part of some grand plan to which we as individuals are small but special parts.....OK it's way to early for me to get this deep.

Let me take it down a notch....Claire is still hot. There we go. My brain hurts less now.

Offline Gar O Mac

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 05:03:52 PM »
We think Jacob could be Good or Holy...and some of us say how? How can a good man let others die? How can a good man seemingly order the deaths of people or let them commit acts of violence in his name?

But that is what happens. I guess these questions will be answered when we realize exactly what Jacob and MIB really are?

You know, that is one of those fundamental faith questions: Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why are we all here? What is the meaning of life? etc.

Most world religions answer it in a similar way in that it is all part of some grand plan to which we as individuals are small but special parts.....OK it's way to early for me to get this deep.

Let me take it down a notch....Claire is still hot. There we go. My brain hurts less now.
Bad things happen to good people because people have free will and are not always that smart so they cause bad things to happen.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2010, 05:21:21 PM »
We think Jacob could be Good or Holy...and some of us say how? How can a good man let others die? How can a good man seemingly order the deaths of people or let them commit acts of violence in his name?

But that is what happens. I guess these questions will be answered when we realize exactly what Jacob and MIB really are?

You know, that is one of those fundamental faith questions: Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why are we all here? What is the meaning of life? etc.

Most world religions answer it in a similar way in that it is all part of some grand plan to which we as individuals are small but special parts.....OK it's way to early for me to get this deep.

Let me take it down a notch....Claire is still hot. There we go. My brain hurts less now.
Bad things happen to good people because people have free will and are not always that smart so they cause bad things to happen.

But a kid getting luekemia has nothing to do with free will so...bah philosophy is hard. Let me revert back....I like Jello. Ahh, much better.

Offline Gar O Mac

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2010, 05:42:28 PM »
We think Jacob could be Good or Holy...and some of us say how? How can a good man let others die? How can a good man seemingly order the deaths of people or let them commit acts of violence in his name?

But that is what happens. I guess these questions will be answered when we realize exactly what Jacob and MIB really are?

You know, that is one of those fundamental faith questions: Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why are we all here? What is the meaning of life? etc.

Most world religions answer it in a similar way in that it is all part of some grand plan to which we as individuals are small but special parts.....OK it's way to early for me to get this deep.

Let me take it down a notch....Claire is still hot. There we go. My brain hurts less now.
Bad things happen to good people because people have free will and are not always that smart so they cause bad things to happen.

But a kid getting luekemia has nothing to do with free will so...bah philosophy is hard. Let me revert back....I like Jello. Ahh, much better.
But it can be related to free will, Many kinds of cancers can be induced by air pollution, tampered water supplies, and ill-researched medicines. All things that could be stopped but for the fact that not even God can interfere with the decisions that a person makes because of free will.


And now Cookies!!! Hope that helps.  ;)

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2010, 08:15:38 PM »
Did Jacob cause that car to hit Nadia? Was that car going to be in that place at that time and he saved sayids life? Why didn't he talk to both Nadia and Sayid?

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2010, 08:31:37 PM »
Did Jacob cause that car to hit Nadia? Was that car going to be in that place at that time and he saved sayids life? Why didn't he talk to both Nadia and Sayid?

I tossed that idea around in my head for a while too.  I think that event took place exactly how Jacob wanted it to.  He knew that Nadia would die and maybe he needed for Sayid to go thru that experience for some reason.

Offline PrincessLeia

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2010, 09:37:42 PM »
If I've invested 6 years in this show, and Jacob ends up being either Jesus or God, and this is all some big christian parable...I'm gonna be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissed.  :D

I'm a Catholic myself, and I think it would be really weak to have Jacob end up being Jesus or God. At the same time, it is a common literary device to use Christ-like imagery or metaphors. But I think thats as far as they will go. This show isn't on the 700 Club.
It doesn't have to be strictly Christian and literal, but the themes of good/evil, light/dark, yin/yang shine through.  A lot of the same themes flow through history, whether it's greek/egyptian/roman mythology, Christianity, or other religions.

Having said that, Ben seemed awful "Peter" on this episode, betraying and repenting.  And Richard was depairing, like Judas, willing to kill himself.  The theme is repentance vs depair. 
I posted about that last week.  From a literary standpoint, the story of the Bible is the oldest story there is. 


We think Jacob could be Good or Holy...and some of us say how? How can a good man let others die? How can a good man seemingly order the deaths of people or let them commit acts of violence in his name?

But that is what happens. I guess these questions will be answered when we realize exactly what Jacob and MIB really are?

You know, that is one of those fundamental faith questions: Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why are we all here? What is the meaning of life? etc.

Most world religions answer it in a similar way in that it is all part of some grand plan to which we as individuals are small but special parts.....OK it's way to early for me to get this deep.

Let me take it down a notch....Claire is still hot. There we go. My brain hurts less now.
Bad things don't always happen as a result of free will or as a sort of cosmic justice.  I agree that most who believe in a higher power process it according to the "grand plan," but difficult circumstances are also the litmus test of life.  What a person is truly made of comes through in those times.  A "believer" or a "chosen one" will usually see those times as opportunity for personal growth.  For someone who has hope beyond this world, bad things can be seen as a sort of refining process in which the one enduring difficulty is purified by the weakness, doubt, & evil burning away.








& I really hope we get to see a shirtless Richard before the series's end. ;) ::) ;D

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2010, 10:02:57 PM »
Real quick I don't want anyone thinking I am making fun of a Christian church here...I grew up Catholic

It just reminded me of those commercials

Ben says I watched my Daughter Alex die in front of me I had a chance to save her. But I choose the island over her.

ALL IN THE NAME OF JACOB...I sacreficed everything for him and he didn't even care. I stabbed him. I was Angry. Confused. I was terrified that I was going to loose my power. The only thing that I cared about was gone. I am sorry...I can never forgive myself

When asked where will you go? I will go to Locke he is the only one that will have me

I will have you.....


Powerfull stuff...We hear this a lot from those that have committed acts of sins, have problems or that have been involved in a some type of personal disaster...That God has forsaken them...That it is God's fault


I am not linking Jacob to God or the idea of God, but there is a connection here. In a way I see them as being chosen but I guess the idea is that it isn't a easy path to follow. That Jacob shows you the path it is up to you to decide if you want to follow and only the true. chosen one will replace Jacob.

I so didn't believe this blubbering fool of Ben standing there pouring his heart out to this woman he was going to kill. I am Ben I have been given a bad streak of luck/life etc.

I do not nor have I ever believed that Jacob is God and his blaming someone who was asking them to watch and teake care of an ilsand was their choice.  He must have had some compelling story that had them commit themselve.  Basically Ben owed his life to the island for his being brought back to life by the well.

The parallel life was interesting in the sense that his father admited his guilt for the life they had.  BUT the one thing he did do right was to take Ben out of Dharma.  So the reality of Ben's life was not his choice of being on that island but his fathers.  Roger didn't leave he had free beer and was content to escape from what the real world had to offer.  So is this more the sins of the father as opposed to "sinning".  We have the confession of Ben's Dad, Ben and Ilana calling Jacob the closest thing to a father.

Offline mushermellon

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2010, 11:47:35 PM »
Real quick I don't want anyone thinking I am making fun of a Christian church here...I grew up Catholic

It just reminded me of those commercials

Ben says I watched my Daughter Alex die in front of me I had a chance to save her. But I choose the island over her.

ALL IN THE NAME OF JACOB...I sacreficed everything for him and he didn't even care. I stabbed him. I was Angry. Confused. I was terrified that I was going to loose my power. The only thing that I cared about was gone. I am sorry...I can never forgive myself

When asked where will you go? I will go to Locke he is the only one that will have me

I will have you.....


Powerfull stuff...We hear this a lot from those that have committed acts of sins, have problems or that have been involved in a some type of personal disaster...That God has forsaken them...That it is God's fault


I am not linking Jacob to God or the idea of God, but there is a connection here. In a way I see them as being chosen but I guess the idea is that it isn't a easy path to follow. That Jacob shows you the path it is up to you to decide if you want to follow and only the true. chosen one will replace Jacob.

I so didn't believe this blubbering fool of Ben standing there pouring his heart out to this woman he was going to kill. I am Ben I have been given a bad streak of luck/life etc.

I do not nor have I ever believed that Jacob is God and his blaming someone who was asking them to watch and teake care of an ilsand was their choice.  He must have had some compelling story that had them commit themselve.  Basically Ben owed his life to the island for his being brought back to life by the well.

The parallel life was interesting in the sense that his father admited his guilt for the life they had.  BUT the one thing he did do right was to take Ben out of Dharma.  So the reality of Ben's life was not his choice of being on that island but his fathers.  Roger didn't leave he had free beer and was content to escape from what the real world had to offer.  So is this more the sins of the father as opposed to "sinning".  We have the confession of Ben's Dad, Ben and Ilana calling Jacob the closest thing to a father.
I was thinking about why Ben and his dad have a good relationship.  Good relationship maybe=his dad was never an alcoholic maybe= Ben's Mom didn't die in childbirth?  Any thoughts as to how that could be?

Offline Blitz Wing

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2010, 07:58:31 AM »
I was thinking about why Ben and his dad have a good relationship.  Good relationship maybe=his dad was never an alcoholic maybe= Ben's Mom didn't die in childbirth?  Any thoughts as to how that could be?

I was thinking it was either because the purge never happened (Ben killing his dad changed him into the Ben we know), or Sayid never shot Ben as a kid....as Sayid never time traveled back in time to shoot Ben in the side-timeline. The others saving Kid Ben changed Ben forever. I was thinking since Ben & Roger did go to the Island with Dharma all that other stuff happened the same.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2010, 02:15:14 PM »
I think that the basic characters of the people are the same in both timelines, Sayid has the potential to be a bad man,
Ben has the potential to be a liar and a Macchiavellian leader, Kate is always on the run, Jack always fixes, Locke is angry.

In the crashtimeline these characteristics are being abused by Jacob or MIB or both to guide people in a certain direction,
while in the LAXtimeline they make their own choices and Sayid doesn't marry Nadia, because he knows he has the potential to be bad.
Ben doesn't become the principal, because he cares more about Alex than about a job (or an island), Locke isn't obsessed with his father. etc

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2010, 05:26:05 PM »
Ben is a weasel and will always be a weasel.  He did the right thing for Alex in his alternative life.  But you know that is one thing that is frosting me.  Rousseau from the French team just happens to end up living in the same area as Ben.

Okay point is that they do  have to cross paths, but it is different.  He still is "nuturing" her but he doesn't forsake her.

Ben will not survive and be happy in the end!  I can't say he is evil incarnate but he is out of himself.  We will see how long he lasts as this can I help you?

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2010, 05:35:47 PM »
Ben is a weasel and will always be a weasel. 

True, but this show deals alot with the characters evolving and overcoming their flaw. Like Charlie and his addiction, Kate going from not wanting to be a mom to caring for Aaron, Jack and his lack of faith, Sawyer and his selfishness....though he's kinda regressed.

I could see them redeeming Ben in this final season, letting him attone for his flaws and becoming a better person. We are so used to the guy working an angle, but maybe losing Alex and then Jacob has finally been that watershed moment he needed.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2010, 08:16:57 PM »
Ben is a weasel and will always be a weasel. 

True, but this show deals alot with the characters evolving and overcoming their flaw. Like Charlie and his addiction, Kate going from not wanting to be a mom to caring for Aaron, Jack and his lack of faith, Sawyer and his selfishness....though he's kinda regressed.

I could see them redeeming Ben in this final season, letting him attone for his flaws and becoming a better person. We are so used to the guy working an angle, but maybe losing Alex and then Jacob has finally been that watershed moment he needed.

I get your point and as for Kate not wanting to be a mother I will disagree.  She was a person who ran from responsibility.  She has issues and they are still there.
There is some progression in the characters behaviors but that is done for a p urpose and the purpose is the island.

and if Ben truly does a 180 I will buy you a soda.  But I do not have Faith in him

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Ben's Job or Church of Latter Day Saints Speech
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2010, 10:07:15 PM »
Ben is a weasel and will always be a weasel. 

True, but this show deals alot with the characters evolving and overcoming their flaw. Like Charlie and his addiction, Kate going from not wanting to be a mom to caring for Aaron, Jack and his lack of faith, Sawyer and his selfishness....though he's kinda regressed.

I could see them redeeming Ben in this final season, letting him attone for his flaws and becoming a better person. We are so used to the guy working an angle, but maybe losing Alex and then Jacob has finally been that watershed moment he needed.

I get your point and as for Kate not wanting to be a mother I will disagree.  She was a person who ran from responsibility.  She has issues and they are still there.
There is some progression in the characters behaviors but that is done for a p urpose and the purpose is the island.

and if Ben truly does a 180 I will buy you a soda.  But I do not have Faith in him

You have a point about Kate. Her character development has been a little, well little. I mean she did have an abortion when she was married to that Kevin guy, and her prophetic conversation with Claire while they were doing laundry expressed her fear of being a mother. But I think you state it better in that she is a person who has and still does run away from responsiblity.

As for Ben, I prefer Mountain Dew. Thank you. ;)