Author Topic: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)  (Read 4156 times)

Offline MachThree

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Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« on: March 06, 2010, 01:01:38 PM »
I've been thinking for a while now that Mib not necessarily bad, or pure bad, and Jacob not necessarily good, or pure good.

Thinking of backgammon, as Locke said:

"Two sides.  Black and white"

Two sides?  Absolutely.  There are two players.  In this case Jacob and Smokey.

Black and white?  Yes, those are the colors of the game pieces, but... I think its quite a jump we all made past that - black and white are diametrically opposed, must be pure good vs. pure evil, etc.  Backgammon has two players.  The player who plays white isn't necessarily any more good or pure than the guy playing black, who isn't necessarily any more evil than the guy playing white. 

I also wonder if the end to the S5 finale was some sort of big hint as to all of this.  Hear me out.  The opening credits until that time, and the "(Boom) LOST" that ended most episodes.  Always white on black.  Interesting choice of color schemes for these images, huh?  But then, bam, Season 5 finalle, suddenly its black on white.  Does that tell us these colors are interchangable?  That the sides are interchangable, or equivelant to each other?

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2010, 05:21:27 PM »
I've heard similar theories a few times now and in a way I agree, but I also disagree. Take Jacob, for example. They have done alot of imagery to show he is the white pieces on your backgammon board. Now, while I think it's clear he is not 100% completely "good" I think he is certainly on the protaganist side of the spectrum. In alot of books/movies/tv shows, we see the hero of the story not be 100% good, sometimes going so far as to be more of an anti-hero. Take the Boondock Saints. The brothers are certainly the "good guys" but they do some pretty messed up stuff.

Same can be said about Jacob, he lets bad things happen to good people (let's Nadia get hit by a car, only saves Hurley and Jack from the temple, etc.) but I would say he is the "good guy" of our story. This would then make MIB the antagonist or "bad guy" of the story, and his wrap sheet is very long indeed.

So, while I think you have a point that the good guys vs. bad guys in not as clearcut as say the Jedi vs. the Sith, I still believe that Jacob's side are the good guys and MIB's side are the bad guys.

As for the S5 finale, my take is that it was just a cool way to end the show with a white flash of the explosion. It may have some deeper meaning, but I think it was just a cool last shot.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2010, 06:45:51 AM »
I think in this timeline Jacob is the bad one.
He only thinks about the island and not about the people.

MIB kills too, but if he achieves his goal, that according to me is going back to the original timeline,
everybody will be alife again. So, he didn't kill anybody.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2010, 07:05:56 AM »
I don't know. MIB is a mass murderer directly killing who knows how many people, while Jacob hasn't even come close to that. We have no idea if Jacob ordered the Dharma purge or not. Like how killing Danielle and baby Alex seemed to be more Widmore's idea than Jacob's which is why Ben called him out on it. Ben said, if Jacob really wanted it, then Widmore should do it, essentially calling his bluff.

Plus, if we go on costume and facial expressions alone, it makes a strong case for MIB being the bad guy.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2010, 07:35:20 AM »
But if MIB's plan succeed they will all be alife again. If Jacob's plan succeeds they will all stay dead.
I think Jacob indirectly killed a lot of them. One big theme in Lost are the cons, Jacob cons to kill.
He is only interested in the island.


Offline lostlady

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2010, 03:06:01 PM »

Plus, if we go on costume and facial expressions alone, it makes a strong case for MIB being the bad guy.

LOL!! So true.... however, I am thinking a twist is coming and soon all the Losties will be following MIB and he will give them their "greatest wish--whatever they want" and they will all go back to the sideways timeline....

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2010, 06:33:57 PM »

Plus, if we go on costume and facial expressions alone, it makes a strong case for MIB being the bad guy.

LOL!! So true.... however, I am thinking a twist is coming and soon all the Losties will be following MIB and he will give them their "greatest wish--whatever they want" and they will all go back to the sideways timeline....

ya but when have relying on the way the actor plays the character ever come through being true? good/evil are all in the eye of the beholder... and plus neither jacob nor Unlocke have admitted themselves as good or evil theyve only commented on how they arent what people have branded them on... i dont think we will know .. til we know.

Offline Rebel 3:16

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2010, 06:56:15 PM »
I think in this timeline Jacob is the bad one.
He only thinks about the island and not about the people.

MIB kills too, but if he achieves his goal, that according to me is going back to the original timeline,
everybody will be alife again. So, he didn't kill anybody.

I agree, in assuming you mean the LA X time line. Its a good theory put well in writing, no offence meant but its a simple way of summing it up, as I see (and am sure others do) many theories that are very complicated.
But if we think of the crash, the death (Boone, Shannon, Charlie, Locke etc) as the 815 crash time line then yes, I agree this is Jacob's doing, bringing the people to the Island by way of Des not pushing the button etc, the whole Dharma and a big power struggle on the Island including Jughead.
However if the LA X timeline is what MiB, Flocke, or whatever we call HIM is planning with his promises (getting off the Island, Sayid can see Nadia again etc) then it would make alot of sense, to me at least.

I'm going along with this theory for now, the crash and the 815ers struggle on the Island was all down to Jacob's interference but MiB can put all this right if people will trust him and follow/ join him, thus ending up in the LA X timeline - everyone is alive and well and on a slightly better footing than before 815 left Sydney.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2010, 11:36:01 PM »

Plus, if we go on costume and facial expressions alone, it makes a strong case for MIB being the bad guy.

LOL!! So true.... however, I am thinking a twist is coming and soon all the Losties will be following MIB and he will give them their "greatest wish--whatever they want" and they will all go back to the sideways timeline....

ya but when have relying on the way the actor plays the character ever come through being true?

Almost every time.
One slight exception I can think of is 'The Usual Suspects' that had one of the all time great twists at the end with Kevin Spacey turning out to be Keysor Soze. But the kind of 180 twist you guys are talking about would be like the cop Chaz Palminteri turning out to be Keysor Soze. To use a Star Wars analogy (which I tend to do) this would be like Yoda really being on the darkside and the Emperor being the lightside. I think it's just too much of a swing for the audience to buy it. I mean we havn't really seen Jacob do anything bad unless you consider destiny to be inherantly evil.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2010, 12:32:31 PM »

Plus, if we go on costume and facial expressions alone, it makes a strong case for MIB being the bad guy.

LOL!! So true.... however, I am thinking a twist is coming and soon all the Losties will be following MIB and he will give them their "greatest wish--whatever they want" and they will all go back to the sideways timeline....

ya but when have relying on the way the actor plays the character ever come through being true?

Almost every time.
One slight exception I can think of is 'The Usual Suspects' that had one of the all time great twists at the end with Kevin Spacey turning out to be Keysor Soze. But the kind of 180 twist you guys are talking about would be like the cop Chaz Palminteri turning out to be Keysor Soze. To use a Star Wars analogy (which I tend to do) this would be like Yoda really being on the darkside and the Emperor being the lightside. I think it's just too much of a swing for the audience to buy it. I mean we havn't really seen Jacob do anything bad unless you consider destiny to be inherantly evil.

I've got to agree with Casey here.  I think it's POSSIBLE that they may throw this twist at us, but I'll be disappointed at the blatant misdirection.  Besides, Jacob, in the first beach scene, shows a certain faith in humanity, while MIB shows a definite disgust for it.  If this story is about free will vs. fate, then MIB is on the side of free will, but that doesn't make him good.  He offers everyone a 'choice' by tempting them with selfish rewards like the serpent in the Garden does to Adam and Eve.  Jacob looks for everyone to accept sacrifice and remain loyal, but isn't that what most of the 'good guys' in organized religions ask of us?  My guess is that those who side with Jacob will find their reward later, as in MUCH later.

One other point I'd like to make is that some of us have said that the flashes sideways are what happens because MIB defeated Jacob and the losties appear to have happier lives in the flashes.  WHAT?  Jack is not close to his son (although he is beginning to turn that around) and lives apart from his son's mother.  His father is still dead and while he isn't currently drunk, it was hinted that he may still be a recovering alcoholic (alcoholics are always recovering, always battling, never cured).  Nadia is currently alive (so far), but married to Sayid's ass of a brother instead of her true love and Sayid is forced to kill yet again to save him.  Jin is first being detained at the airport (never fun) and later at Keamy's Place (Home of the world's best.....eggs).  He looks no better than before, in fact worse, and may not even be married to Sun at this time.  Locke is still with Helen and has a relationship with his father, so he is much happier........except that he is still in the wheelchair, just got fired for wasting the company's money in Australia where he was denied his dream of going on the walkabout (did you SEE his expression as they helped him off the plane?), and has to depend on Hurley to get him a job substitute teaching, of all thing, Phys. Ed and Sex Ed to healthy horny teenagers.  Claire just flew all the way from Australia to get dumped by her baby's adoptive couple and now faces giving birth to a baby she didn't want, in a hospital in a foreign country, with a wanted murderer as a Lamaze coach!  (Before the loving parents among us scream at me, yes, I believe motherhood will make her life better, no matter what she has to go through to get there, but it's not looking like a breeze for her just yet).  Lastly, as for the aforementioned murderer, aside from seeming to enjoy the rush of the chase a little more in this timeline, Kate is unfortunately, still on the run.

So, unless they show a major turn of events for the group, I don't see this sideflash as being much of a bargain for our losties.

Offline Hurley rocks dudes

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 05:04:38 PM »
I've heard similar theories a few times now and in a way I agree, but I also disagree. Take Jacob, for example. They have done alot of imagery to show he is the white pieces on your backgammon board. Now, while I think it's clear he is not 100% completely "good" I think he is certainly on the protaganist side of the spectrum. In alot of books/movies/tv shows, we see the hero of the story not be 100% good, sometimes going so far as to be more of an anti-hero. Take the Boondock Saints. The brothers are certainly the "good guys" but they do some pretty messed up stuff.

Same can be said about Jacob, he lets bad things happen to good people (let's Nadia get hit by a car, only saves Hurley and Jack from the temple, etc.) but I would say he is the "good guy" of our story. This would then make MIB the antagonist or "bad guy" of the story, and his wrap sheet is very long indeed.

So, while I think you have a point that the good guys vs. bad guys in not as clearcut as say the Jedi vs. the Sith, I still believe that Jacob's side are the good guys and MIB's side are the bad guys.

As for the S5 finale, my take is that it was just a cool way to end the show with a white flash of the explosion. It may have some deeper meaning, but I think it was just a cool last shot.
boondock saints FTW!!

Offline nomteticus

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2010, 08:32:09 PM »
I think in this timeline Jacob is the bad one.
He only thinks about the island and not about the people.

MIB kills too, but if he achieves his goal, that according to me is going back to the original timeline,
everybody will be alife again.
So, he didn't kill anybody.

VERY good catch, opgelost! Maybe Smokey/MIB is killing some people so they can all be reborn.

But that still doesn't make him good, even by utilitarian standards, since Jacob may be sacrificing people for a higher cause, such as to stop the end of the world. And if MIB stops him, a lot more people (about 6 billion) will die, so maybe that's what's all about. And yet, even if the end-of-the-world theory is true, that still doesn't make MIB bad, since he may believe the end of the world to be a good thing, etc etc.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 09:52:44 AM »
I think in this timeline Jacob is the bad one.
He only thinks about the island and not about the people.

MIB kills too, but if he achieves his goal, that according to me is going back to the original timeline,
everybody will be alife again.
So, he didn't kill anybody.

VERY good catch, opgelost! Maybe Smokey/MIB is killing some people so they can all be reborn.

But that still doesn't make him good, even by utilitarian standards, since Jacob may be sacrificing people for a higher cause, such as to stop the end of the world. And if MIB stops him, a lot more people (about 6 billion) will die, so maybe that's what's all about. And yet, even if the end-of-the-world theory is true, that still doesn't make MIB bad, since he may believe the end of the world to be a good thing, etc etc.

I had a whole long drawn out 'end of days' theory here from awhile back and I've always said that for true believers, the 'end' of the world isn't really the end, but a new, better beginning.  There's more than one way to look at things when you're talking about something as big as that. 

I think it's possible that MIB is trying to be free from the island and maybe this would bring about the end of days.  Jacob may be doing everything he can, and sacrificing people if he must, to stop him.  I won't like it if it plays out like this because that would mean the writers are taking a religious storyline and making it viewer friendly, ignoring the true meaning of the story.  If you've ever seen 'The Seventh Sign' with Demi Moore, the end of days ends up getting 'postponed', and the world saved, when she finds the faith to sacrifice herself.   That's just wonderful, except that the whole idea of the book of Revelation in the bible is that the end of days is necessary for the coming of the messiah to save the righteous and create a new Heaven and Earth.  It's supposed to be a good thing.  What good does it do to save everyone's 'mortal' life and let them go about their sinful ways, putting off the 'eternal' life that was promised?  The writers won't write a story with an ending where everyone 'dies' (and I agree with the folks who have insisted to me that ABC/Disney doesn't have the guts to take this story in that direction).  Instead they'd rather write it so that one of the characters (probably Jack) redeems himself somehow and, through faith, makes it so that there is no need for the world to end.  Yada, yada, yada.......for once I'd like to see someone step up and admit that this world is in desperate need of a savior!

Offline opgelost

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 01:41:16 PM »
I think in this timeline Jacob is the bad one.
He only thinks about the island and not about the people.

MIB kills too, but if he achieves his goal, that according to me is going back to the original timeline,
everybody will be alife again.
So, he didn't kill anybody.

VERY good catch, opgelost! Maybe Smokey/MIB is killing some people so they can all be reborn.

But that still doesn't make him good, even by utilitarian standards, since Jacob may be sacrificing people for a higher cause, such as to stop the end of the world. And if MIB stops him, a lot more people (about 6 billion) will die, so maybe that's what's all about. And yet, even if the end-of-the-world theory is true, that still doesn't make MIB bad, since he may believe the end of the world to be a good thing, etc etc.

It's not the end of the world, just the end of the island. I believe MIB is good. He is coursecorrecting the mess Jacob made and to do that he had to kill him first.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Backgammon (or Smokey And The Bandit)
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 01:49:43 PM »
I think in this timeline Jacob is the bad one.
He only thinks about the island and not about the people.

MIB kills too, but if he achieves his goal, that according to me is going back to the original timeline,
everybody will be alife again.
So, he didn't kill anybody.

VERY good catch, opgelost! Maybe Smokey/MIB is killing some people so they can all be reborn.

But that still doesn't make him good, even by utilitarian standards, since Jacob may be sacrificing people for a higher cause, such as to stop the end of the world. And if MIB stops him, a lot more people (about 6 billion) will die, so maybe that's what's all about. And yet, even if the end-of-the-world theory is true, that still doesn't make MIB bad, since he may believe the end of the world to be a good thing, etc etc.

It's not the end of the world, just the end of the island. I believe MIB is good. He is coursecorrecting the mess Jacob made and to do that he had to kill him first.

But then what will be the ultimate purpose of the story?  MIB comes to the rescue and course corrects the universe so that all these people go back to their mediocre, meaningless lives?  I don't see it.