Author Topic: Are we being misled?  (Read 3975 times)

Offline Blitz Wing

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2010, 03:24:06 AM »
Yeah I suspected Jacob of possibly being the "bad" guy from the start because he just was so smug talking to MIB on the beach. Then later when confront by Ben who spent his entire life working for Jacob, Jacob treats Ben like crap. And it's obvious by now Jacob is a really harsh manipulator, even though he acts all gentle and benevolent. If Jacob was the one who recruited Dogen, that was a crappy deal he gave Dogen. Also since Jacob can seem to foresee what's going to happen, you would figure he foresaw Dogen's death at Sayid's hands. So Jacob didn't bother to try to save Dogen or even tell him about it.

MIB on the other hand, he seems to give people choices (maybe sometimes not very good ones, "leave or die"). He seems to generally tell people what's going on rather than keeping them in the dark, and he seems to do what he says he'll do. I'm not saying he's super "good", he's done his share of killing and manipulating. But I think I rather side with MIB than Jacob from what I know so far.

I don't think Jacob & MIB represent "good" & "evil".....they do have the colors of white & black associated with each of them. But isn't it kind of like playing Chess? Each side's pieces are black or white, but I never really saw them as the good side or the evil side.

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 03:42:16 AM »
yes  completely agree.  I think Smokie just seems bad because he is seen as a killer.  But what he is doing is killing people he thinks will destroy his island  so its almost self defense

Offline Maxor127

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 04:58:44 AM »
Except it seems like MIB wants to destroy the island...

Offline ericd543

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 06:18:57 AM »
<snip> Throughout all the seasons, Smokey seemed a little Schizophrenic.  Sometimes he was peaceful showing glimpses of people past life and sometimes it would rip peoples heads off.  I wonder if both Jacob and MIB both can be Smokey.  i guess i cant put my finger on it but it is definitely not perfectly clear as to who the evil one is...

I've wondered too if Smokey was a tool that could be used by either Jacob or MIB. Perhaps Jacob used Smokey for non-violent reasons like Christians talk with Locke, judging Ben or getting soul snapshots of Locke, Kate, Juliet, Ecko, etc.  but MIB sure seems to give Smokey a will to destroy.

I'm torn too about whether Jacob or MIB is the evil one. The only time I'm sure it was MIB using Smokey is after Jacob died.  I'm feeling a setup for a twist.

Offline grizn0

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 08:43:29 AM »
After seeing what we've seen. I thought the first time Locke saw Smokey where he described it as the eye of the island and the bright light was Jacob.  So if thats true then I would say yes to your question. But I think Jacob used the ability much less than MIB.

Offline RM

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 10:34:59 AM »
Well, Jacob hasn't actually killed anybody.  You can say that he allowed some people to die (Nadya), the Others at the Temple.  But you could also say that he literally resurrected Locke after he was thrown out of the window; he saved Sayid from also being run over at the same time as Nadya; he just saved Hurley and Jack by sending them on an errand that got them out of the Temple.

Smokey is actually killing people directly from his own actions.  That's quite different to me.  Saying the Temple people "deserved" death for not "repenting", like Sodom and Gomorrah is BS to me.  The only thing even the Temple people are guilty of (and certainly our Losties) is not fulling understanding what is going on.  "Do what I say or I'll kill you" is pretty evil in my book.

Offline CastawayCayley

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 11:30:51 AM »
Please don't start multiple threads with the same question. I've merged them. That's why there are some double-posts here. FYI: If you start a thread and then realize you put it on the wrong board just ask a mod to move it. Thanks!

Offline lostfromthestart

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 12:57:40 PM »
Uh, yeah?!  Have you watched Lost?  Misleading is what they try to do.  As for me, I've said it before - in the end it will all be a game, literally.  We will pan out and learn that "Jacob/Aaron" and "MIB/Flocke/David" are two kids playing some type of imaginative board game at their grandpa's (Christian's) house.  They keep playing it over and over again, changing some minor detail along the way, that results in a different "timeline/dimension/story" each time they play it. 

In this way, 2 + 2 can = bowling ball, as one poster previously said.  On any given version of the game they keep playing one is good the other bad.  Spmetime both.  Its all just a game they each try to win, just making it all up as they go.

Just like in St. Elsewhere, Men in Black and other classic endings.  Not saying this would be good or even classic, in this case.  But it does have a snowglobe's chance in hell of happening.

Offline I_Am_Jacob

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2010, 01:25:16 PM »
I don't think either one is specifically bad or good. As for why Jacob allows people to die goes hand in hand with his knowledge of other universes. My theories hinge on that, so if this disagrees with other ideas, this thought won't make much sense. I think the island is much more important than JUST an island. This is why Jacob is willing to allow Nadya to get hit by a car. She doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Its sour to say, and sour to hear, but it may turn out to be true. He knows that if he has to "push" Sayid back to the island by letting "Dimension Y" Nadya get hit by a car, then thats what needs to happen. Especially if he knows that there is always a "Demension X" where they can have some semblance of a relationship.  Same goes for the deal with Dogen. If Dogen Needed to be on the island, it was imperative for him to drive a near impossible bargain to get Dogen to the island. Also, if Jacob saved Dogen's son's life, isn't that a good thing?

For example, What Wouldn't you do to save all existence? Especially if there were multiple planes of existence you could draw people from to help you save it.

Offline lostandfree

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2010, 01:35:18 PM »
yeah I've wondered for a while if Jacob was actually the bad one and MIB the good, though I hope it's not the case because I just don't want it that way. 

I am almost certain though that MIB was the one in the cabin who said "help me".  I think we were discussing this a couple of episodes ago.

Offline infrared41

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2010, 01:39:31 PM »
While it's easy to think we may be being "mislead," I don't think we are. The reason is simple; you don't spend 5+ seasons setting up characters as either "good" or "bad" just to pull the rug and do a big switch right at the end. That's just bad writing.  It's also easy to want to paint characters into an all or nothing position. Jacob is "good." Un-Locke is "bad." The thing is, LOST doesn't work that way. It's all a matter of degree. There are no all "good" or all "bad" characters. There are only matters of degree and that's where fans of the show are going to find the "end" most frustrating.

In short, we aren't being "mislead" at all. We're simply being shown that it's never as simple as black and white. Un-Locke is clearly being portrayed as the bad guy but upon closer examination we think "you know for a 'bad' guy he has some pretty good ideas." Jacob is clearly being portrayed as the good guy but upon closer examination we think "you know for a 'good' guy he's not exactly giving these folks much of a choice."

Think back to season two or three (I forget which) when the others were claiming to be the good guys. Jack or someone says something to the effect of "after all you've done, how can you be the good guys?" To which Juliet or someone responded with something to the effect of "how many of your people have we killed? Who are the ones running around with guns etc.?" There were clearly two ways to look at that and you could make a case for both sides being "the good guys."

At the end of the day it's never as simple as good or bad or right or wrong or black or white. It's simply a matter of degree. Someone will win and someone will lose and we'll be arguing about who it was for years to come.

My favorite thing about LOST has always been that it makes you think. We used to love the fact that we had to think. Now we're acting like kids the night before Christmas. We don't give a damn about anything except getting our hands on those presents. Or on this case the answers. Don't lose the forest for the trees in this last season folks. Relax and quit worrying about who's what.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 01:43:46 PM by infrared41 »

Offline hatch4815162342

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2010, 05:06:16 PM »
If you remember correctly the smoke monster doesnt always kill people....he didnt kill locke the first time locke saw him or the first time echo saw him and "stared him down". i think jacob is definatly a bad guy and unlocke is the true protector of the island

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2010, 07:41:34 PM »
Please don't start multiple threads with the same question. I've merged them. That's why there are some double-posts here. FYI: If you start a thread and then realize you put it on the wrong board just ask a mod to move it. Thanks!

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooo much Cayley.  I felt like I was repeating myself and then thought gee are my meds working? Or am I seeing double again

Offline RM

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2010, 06:57:05 PM »
Think back to season two or three (I forget which) when the others were claiming to be the good guys. Jack or someone says something to the effect of "after all you've done, how can you be the good guys?" To which Juliet or someone responded with something to the effect of "how many of your people have we killed? Who are the ones running around with guns etc.?" There were clearly two ways to look at that and you could make a case for both sides being "the good guys."

Nope.  The Others abducted and terrorized the Losties without explanation when they could have sent them back to civilization at any time.  They certainly killed the Army people in 1954 and took their clothes and barracks.  They killed the redshirt time-jumpers with flaming arrows (although you could argue they didn't know who they were killing).  They killed all of Dharma in The Purge (for overstaying their welcome?)

I am not on board the Others being "good people" just because they think so.

Offline infrared41

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Re: Are we being misled?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2010, 07:41:44 PM »
Think back to season two or three (I forget which) when the others were claiming to be the good guys. Jack or someone says something to the effect of "after all you've done, how can you be the good guys?" To which Juliet or someone responded with something to the effect of "how many of your people have we killed? Who are the ones running around with guns etc.?" There were clearly two ways to look at that and you could make a case for both sides being "the good guys."

Nope.  The Others abducted and terrorized the Losties without explanation when they could have sent them back to civilization at any time.  They certainly killed the Army people in 1954 and took their clothes and barracks.  They killed the redshirt time-jumpers with flaming arrows (although you could argue they didn't know who they were killing).  They killed all of Dharma in The Purge (for overstaying their welcome?)

I am not on board the Others being "good people" just because they think so.


Nope? OK then. I find it highly amusing that you're disagreeing with a point that was minor to the overall thesis of the argument I was making. Even better was the fact that in your rush to "disprove" my theory you completely missed the point of what I was talking about to begin with.

As I said, there's just no way they paint characters as good or bad for 5 seasons only to pull a big switch at the end. I never said the others were the good guys. The point I was making is that it's not as clear cut as "good" and "evil." The reason I brought up the others is that they saw the 815ers as invading their home. So from their perspective they saw themselves as the good guys protecting their home. Again, from a certain perspective, the others could be seen as "good guys." It's all a matter of degree. As much as we'd like (and apparently some people need) the show to be as clear cut as black and white, it simply isn't.

That said, I don't for one second think that un-Locke is going to end up being the "good guy" or that the others are going to suddenly be portrayed as good guys or victims. I was simply pointing out that we aren't being "misled" only to have the writers pull a big switch at the end. What we're seeing is that nothing is ever as easy as just good vs. evil etc.

Perhaps next time you could include my entire post so it doesn't look like I was saying something entirely different than what I actually said.