Author Topic: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?  (Read 9153 times)

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2010, 12:17:51 AM »
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I dont know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

Offline Roman122

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2010, 12:19:43 AM »
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I dont know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Offline jamesl

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2010, 12:21:11 AM »
... What MIB did looked rather evil.

.....I'm not sure Dogen had to be killed
it reminded me of the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the spirit of god came out of the ark and killed all the nazis

Dogen was killed because he sent Sayid out to kill un-Locke. It was a revenge thing. That's how they let us know that Sayid is now in un-Locke's camp.

Dogen had to be killed because he was keeping MIB out, right ?
we saw in the beginning that Flocke and Claire were standing just outside teh circle of ash around the temple and Flocke sent Claire inside
he even said he go do it himself
we never saw the circle of ash broken, but smokey was able to finally come in
and didn't Lennon say, "He (Dogen) was the only thing keeping him (Smokey) out"

Offline tonysee200x

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2010, 12:24:30 AM »
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I dont know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Fwiw - Jacob always makes a point of saying "you have a choice" when trying to get someone to do something.

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 12:34:48 AM »
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I don't know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Well for one sending people to the island....

Sending Hurley to the lighthouse

Jacob seemingly takes away Free will...and the characters perceive it as "fate" ...albeit in passive aggressive form

Even watching Nadia being hit be a car...Jacob is pulling strings. What is his end game? It is to benefit Jacob

Offline Roman122

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2010, 12:43:52 AM »
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I don't know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Well for one sending people to the island....

Sending Hurley to the lighthouse

Jacob seemingly takes away Free will...and the characters perceive it as "fate" ...albeit in passive aggressive form

Even watching Nadia being hit be a car...Jacob is pulling strings. What is his end game? It is to benefit Jacob

I cant really argue with this....

Offline snoopafly

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 02:59:11 AM »
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I don't know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Well for one sending people to the island....

Sending Hurley to the lighthouse

Jacob seemingly takes away Free will...and the characters perceive it as "fate" ...albeit in passive aggressive form

Even watching Nadia being hit be a car...Jacob is pulling strings. What is his end game? It is to benefit Jacob

I cant really argue with this....

Also don't forget that the Others who consider themselves followers of Jacob, they're actions are his responsibility as well. Kidnapping children and babies, purging the Dharma Initiative...whether Jacob explicitly ordered this tasks to occur doesn't really matter, since he allowed it to be done in his name. Doesn't really sound like the actions of a benevolent person to me.

Offline nomteticus

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2010, 06:07:27 AM »
Sayid is not evil, and he's not doing it out of revenge: he is just rational. A demigod that can't be killed offers to bring back Nadia if he offs Dogen, so naturally he does it. Why would he care about Dogen after all he did to him?

Offline muggle_born

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2010, 07:15:51 AM »
They've clearly established that Smokey cannot penetrate the ash.  They've shown that many times.  So I just don't see how it was tied to Dogen.  There was never anything to support that, and yet Lennon made it clear that, apart from revenge, it was the reason Sayid was supposed to kill him.  If his survival was always so imperative for everyone else's safety, why on Earth did they keep allowing Dogen to be alone with Jack, Sayid, and Hurley, etc.?  Shouldn't they have had him in the most secure location possible ever since Jacob died?  In this episode, the Others act like even bigger idiots than they ever had.  What's up with how quickly half of them changed to UnLocke's side and just left the temple?

To get back to the thread questions, we had Dogen tell us his opinion of Flocke (evil incarnate), but we still have evidence steering us both towards and away from that conclusion.  Sayid's sideways story tonight seems to have been intended to show us that you can take the torturer out of Iraq, but you can't take the torture out of the Iraqi.  In the end, Sayid turned to murderous revenge, as he always knew he would, which is why he kept Nadia at bay.  Makes us think that Sayid is evil on the inside and therefore perfect for Flocke's cause.
However, the sideways stories are what would have happened without Jacob's influence, so perhaps that Sayid is not the Sayid we have on the island.  Maybe he really is a good man, as he purported to be.  Maybe there were conversations with Flocke we didn't see (like, "What do you mean you can bring Nadia back, and do I have to not see her anymore, as was forced by Jacob unto the samurai fellow?") where Sayid became convinced that the Others were not good.

To me, it gets back to previous seasons when Smokey has "scanned" individuals and then either let them live or not.  Was he all that time looking for his own candidate?  He offed Echo, but didn't he give him a chance at first?  He didn't off John, but then later tried to drag him down into his hidey-hole and Jack saved him.  Jacob seems to kind of be a heartless bastard.  We're all over the place with good and evil.

For an episode that promised answers, we got... none!

Offline Suzanne4au2

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2010, 10:56:08 AM »
I don't know about MIB but Sayid has something going on. The look on his face at the end of the episode said it all. Any part of him that was caring is gone for now. I think he has left the building!!

Offline horseshoe_crab

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2010, 11:28:41 AM »
Let's get literal.  Dogen told Sayid (paraphrasing) "If you allow him to speak to you it is already too late."  Did anyone notice that Smokie said something like "Hello Sayid." before Sayid could stab him?  What if Dogen was absolutely correct, and that stabbing Smokie through the chest would have killed him, if Sayid did it before Smokie spoke a word? 

That would be a typical Lost situation: Yes, you followed the rules - almost.  Sorry, you lose.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 01:31:38 PM »
Sayid is most deffinitely evil, and this is how you can tell. Not because he killed Dogen, I mean hell, Dogen tried to have Sayid killed twice already. BUT, when that filthy hippy came into the room and said, "Do you realize what you've done? He was the only thing keeping it out." Sayid does two things. The first one is that HE KILLS A COMPLETELY INNOCENT PERSON (despite the fact that he is a gross, dirty, petrulli oil smelling hippy). Second, he says, "I know" because he knows that Smokey wants to come in and kill all of the people in the temple that don't follow him. Now I know Sayid has tortured and killed in the past, but there were reasons for that; all of this death had no reason at all.

Also, think about the entire situation for a second. So, Sayid goes and stabs Locke. Locke pulls out the knife, that has NO blood on it, and proceeds to talk to Sayid about how the person in the temple is bad, and how Locke can give Sayid anything in the whole world (doesn't sound like a deal with the devil to me, how about you guys??) that he desires, all he has to do is deliver this message. Now we as the audience presume to think that the message he was suppossed to deliver was what he said about the man in the jungle and leaving the temple by sundown or you die. Now this is where my own interpretation of what is going on comes into play. It seems to me that the real message Smokey wanted Sayid to deliver was actually a direct message to Dogen, and the message was, "Haha, I turned Sayid into one of my minions and youand everyone in the temple are going to die."

Offline Jungle Otter

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 03:35:18 PM »
Sayid is the new Faust on the island (I think Ben was the first....)

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2010, 03:38:02 PM »
Sayid is the new Faust on the island (I think Ben was the first....)

Oh you might hate me for this, but what does that mean??

Offline Jungle Otter

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Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2010, 03:40:22 PM »
Sayid is the new Faust on the island (I think Ben was the first....)

Oh you might hate me for this, but what does that mean??

Faust is a German legend regarding an individual selling his soul to the devil for knowledge......Sayid "sold" his soul to MIB