Author Topic: New promo ... answers and scales...  (Read 2868 times)

Offline BadRobot64

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New promo ... answers and scales...
« on: March 02, 2010, 04:17:18 PM »
Okay i just saw a new promo for tonights episode "Sundown" in which Sayid is speaking with Dogen demanding answers... and Dogen tells Sayid " Every man is a scale. One side is good, and the other side... evil." okay this tells me that the scale that we saw in the cave where Unlocke and Sawyer saw the scale with a white and black rock keeping the scale balanced. okay well this shows me at least that maybe Unlocke and Jacob are one in the same person, or entity.

Offline MachThree

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 05:15:18 PM »
Okay i just saw a new promo for tonights episode "Sundown" in which Sayid is speaking with Dogen demanding answers... and Dogen tells Sayid " Every man is a scale. One side is good, and the other side... evil." okay this tells me that the scale that we saw in the cave where Unlocke and Sawyer saw the scale with a white and black rock keeping the scale balanced. okay well this shows me at least that maybe Unlocke and Jacob are one in the same person, or entity.

Might be something to that.  I'd even go a step farther - thinking back to Smokey's comment to Sawyer a couple of weeks ago - about how he used to be human.  I wonder if somehow Jacob and Smokey were originally the same being, but somehow that one being's good and bad side fragmented into separate entities.

Though I'm still mostly convinced that Jacob is not pure good, nor is Smokey pure evil.  Anyone familiar with Babylon 5, I'd suspect Jacob = Vorlon's and Smokey = Shadows, at least to a large degree.  Manipulating the mere mortals into doing their bidding, requiring that the mortals chose between them.  A game where both have the same "goal", but the goal being relegated to be less important than whose way / methodology of achieving the goal is chosen by the mere mortals (our Losties).

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 06:10:20 PM »
since im not a fan of babylon that means nothing to me.

Offline ericd543

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 06:13:49 PM »
The scale and the notion that there is good and bad in each of us reminds me of Ben being judged by smokey.

Offline BadRobot64

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 06:18:12 PM »
i agree.. i remember also the first second i saw the scales in the cave... the first thing i thought of was the "scales of Justice"

Offline nomteticus

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2010, 06:25:11 PM »
It has been my theory for a while that they are two sides of the same entity. See here:
http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10056.0.html

In order to escape, the evil side killed the good side, and now he must prevent the candidate to take over for Jacob. Once this is aceived, he may leave, I suppose.

Offline jamesl

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2010, 06:52:37 PM »
Though I'm still mostly convinced that Jacob is not pure good, nor is Smokey pure evil.  Anyone familiar with Babylon 5, I'd suspect Jacob = Vorlon's and Smokey = Shadows, at least to a large degree.  Manipulating the mere mortals into doing their bidding, requiring that the mortals chose between them. 

since im not a fan of babylon that means nothing to me.

the Vorlons and the Shadows are the galaxies 2 oldest species

through the first few seasons of B5 you get the idea that the vorlons are "good"; they work with the younger, less evolved species (humans and a few others); the vorlons help to encourage a UN a planets
but all the while the vorlons are a mysterious species, no one has ever visited their homeworld, no one has ever seen one without its environmental suit on; the vorlons encourage, but they don't really get invloved

while this UN of planets is being formed there is of course bigotry, and trade and territory disputes among the various specie; you think, "well, this is just normal", dozens of planets and species with different cultures and beliefs trying to form an alliance, of course they'll be problems

but, you later learn that these disputes and territorial and trade wars are being backed by a secret third party, the shadows. They are a race equal in age and technology to the vorlons

so you're led to believe that its 2 technologically advanced superpowers that are using various "3rd world countries" (3rd world planets actually) to advance their goals

some people on each planet want to side with the vorlons because they believe in democracy, peace, a UN where people settle their disagreements through discussion

but some people on each planet want to side with the shadows because they promise power, survival of the fittest, expanding your own territory and influence, making your own planet richer and more powerful (through war, coercion and force instead of cooperation)

so, you lead to believe there were 2 sides, vorlons = good, shadows = bad;
but, what you finally learn is that neither side really cares about any of the planets, or territory or trade agreements or anything else
all they really care about is that the galaxy progresses; the people of galaxy must progress

the vorlons believe the galaxy can best progress through peace and cooperation
the shadows believe the galaxy can best progress through chaos and destruction

neither is good or bad, they don't really care about the different species or planets, we find out that the vorlons and shadows have been playing this little "game of evolution" for thousands of generations; millions dead, countless planets destroyed

species die, they live, it doesn't matter; all that matters is that the galaxy progresses

we are but pawns in how that happens


Offline MachThree

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2010, 07:51:02 PM »
Though I'm still mostly convinced that Jacob is not pure good, nor is Smokey pure evil.  Anyone familiar with Babylon 5, I'd suspect Jacob = Vorlon's and Smokey = Shadows, at least to a large degree.  Manipulating the mere mortals into doing their bidding, requiring that the mortals chose between them. 

since im not a fan of babylon that means nothing to me.

the Vorlons and the Shadows are the galaxies 2 oldest species

through the first few seasons of B5 you get the idea that the vorlons are "good"; they work with the younger, less evolved species (humans and a few others); the vorlons help to encourage a UN a planets
but all the while the vorlons are a mysterious species, no one has ever visited their homeworld, no one has ever seen one without its environmental suit on; the vorlons encourage, but they don't really get invloved

while this UN of planets is being formed there is of course bigotry, and trade and territory disputes among the various specie; you think, "well, this is just normal", dozens of planets and species with different cultures and beliefs trying to form an alliance, of course they'll be problems

but, you later learn that these disputes and territorial and trade wars are being backed by a secret third party, the shadows. They are a race equal in age and technology to the vorlons

so you're led to believe that its 2 technologically advanced superpowers that are using various "3rd world countries" (3rd world planets actually) to advance their goals

some people on each planet want to side with the vorlons because they believe in democracy, peace, a UN where people settle their disagreements through discussion

but some people on each planet want to side with the shadows because they promise power, survival of the fittest, expanding your own territory and influence, making your own planet richer and more powerful (through war, coercion and force instead of cooperation)

so, you lead to believe there were 2 sides, vorlons = good, shadows = bad;
but, what you finally learn is that neither side really cares about any of the planets, or territory or trade agreements or anything else
all they really care about is that the galaxy progresses; the people of galaxy must progress

the vorlons believe the galaxy can best progress through peace and cooperation
the shadows believe the galaxy can best progress through chaos and destruction

neither is good or bad, they don't really care about the different species or planets, we find out that the vorlons and shadows have been playing this little "game of evolution" for thousands of generations; millions dead, countless planets destroyed

species die, they live, it doesn't matter; all that matters is that the galaxy progresses

we are but pawns in how that happens



Great summary, James.  B5 was also pretty overt about black vs. white (or darkness vs. light) in terms of the Vorlons and the Shadows.  The Shadows, and their ships, are as dark black as can be.  The lights even dim as they pass by.  The Vorlons, on the other hand, when finally seen outside of their environmental suits, appear as glowing angels (though, quite tellingly, they appear to each race as an angel of that race, because the Vorlon is telepathically projecting the image, hiding his true form even when not concealed by his environmental suit). 

As you said, the Vorlons and Shadows both want to encourage the younger races to grow, and to evolve.  The Vorlons want to do this through "order" - keep everything structured, and at peace, and let evolution and advancement take its course.  The Shadows, on the other hand, want to manipulate the younger races into fighting each other, because wars force technological advancement, and kill off the weak. 

When it comes to Lost, and MiB and Jacob, I also always think of the Vorlon saying "Understanding is a three-edged sword", which is ultimately explained to mean "You're side, their side .... and the truth!".  Nothing is black and white.

So I think with Jacob and MiB, the goal they both have is probably similar, though I do not think we yet know what that goal might be.  But clearly each differs in how to best achieve what they want (even if each wants something different...) 

« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 07:53:15 PM by MachThree »

Offline Optimus J

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 08:25:52 PM »
Might be something to that.  I'd even go a step farther - thinking back to Smokey's comment to Sawyer a couple of weeks ago - about how he used to be human.  I wonder if somehow Jacob and Smokey were originally the same being, but somehow that one being's good and bad side fragmented into separate entities.

Though I'm still mostly convinced that Jacob is not pure good, nor is Smokey pure evil.  Anyone familiar with Babylon 5, I'd suspect Jacob = Vorlon's and Smokey = Shadows, at least to a large degree.  Manipulating the mere mortals into doing their bidding, requiring that the mortals chose between them.  A game where both have the same "goal", but the goal being relegated to be less important than whose way / methodology of achieving the goal is chosen by the mere mortals (our Losties).
That's more close to Dragon Ball, where the Namek Child split into Piccollo Daimaou And Kami-Sama.
I don't think it's like B-5, since it's about a galactic civilization that left, and a Shadow race that took the chance to stay behind, ruling the place alone, forcing the species in exodus to leave one of them, the Vorlon, as protectors of the younger species.
In lost, they are simply two individuals in a contest.

Offline MachThree

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 08:32:41 PM »
Might be something to that.  I'd even go a step farther - thinking back to Smokey's comment to Sawyer a couple of weeks ago - about how he used to be human.  I wonder if somehow Jacob and Smokey were originally the same being, but somehow that one being's good and bad side fragmented into separate entities.

Though I'm still mostly convinced that Jacob is not pure good, nor is Smokey pure evil.  Anyone familiar with Babylon 5, I'd suspect Jacob = Vorlon's and Smokey = Shadows, at least to a large degree.  Manipulating the mere mortals into doing their bidding, requiring that the mortals chose between them.  A game where both have the same "goal", but the goal being relegated to be less important than whose way / methodology of achieving the goal is chosen by the mere mortals (our Losties).
That's more close to Dragon Ball, where the Namek Child split into Piccollo Daimaou And Kami-Sama.
I don't think it's like B-5, since it's about a galactic civilization that left, and a Shadow race that took the chance to stay behind, ruling the place alone, forcing the species in exodus to leave one of them, the Vorlon, as protectors of the younger species.
In lost, they are simply two individuals in a contest.

Am just saying that some aspects of the Vorlon / Shadow conflict in B5 I suspect translate over to the Jacob / Smokey conflict in Lost.  Not a 100% parallel by any means.  But I am especially suggesting it in that just like Shadows / Vorlons not pure evil vs. pure good, Smokey/Jacob is not, I believe, pure evil vs. pure good.

Offline jamesl

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2010, 08:52:31 PM »
and of course lost's rousseau played the Minbari ambassador on B5
ah, what an awesome show that was

Offline jugdish

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 09:41:44 PM »
When did this discussion become a foriegn language class?? :D

Non of that made sense to me.

Offline lovinlost

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 01:05:45 AM »
Okay i just saw a new promo for tonights episode "Sundown" in which Sayid is speaking with Dogen demanding answers... and Dogen tells Sayid " Every man is a scale. One side is good, and the other side... evil." okay this tells me that the scale that we saw in the cave where Unlocke and Sawyer saw the scale with a white and black rock keeping the scale balanced. okay well this shows me at least that maybe Unlocke and Jacob are one in the same person, or entity.

I am pretty much completely convinced of this as well after seeing the entire episode.  I found out that you have been theorizing this for some time, but the first I read of it was when I read a post from Mango several weeks back.  It all lines up for me, and the words Dogan spoke tonight pretty much were the answer as far as I am concerned.  I am impressed that you picked up on it from the sneak peek.  I saw it, but it did not hit my brain like a brick until I actually watched the scene during tonight's episode.

I believe this is especially funny in light of Flocke's comment to Sawyer about the scale in "the cave of names".  He takes the white rock and throws it into the water as a little "inside joke", he explains.  Hahaha!  I laugh now!  It's a real inside joke, because it's a joke between his light side (Jacob) and his dark side (MIB).  I just love this show!

Offline lostfan777

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 11:26:54 AM »
This theory is definitely valid, I won't say it isn't, and it would make for a good story, but I'm not getting on board.  To me, if they are two halves of the same entity, I don't think it makes sense that Jacob would spend God knows how long looking for a candidate to replace him.  It would simply be a battle between them and winner takes all.  Also, I don't think the scale represented the balance between good and evil within 'him' (this one entity).  I think it represented the battle.  MIB, now that Jacob is 'dead', believes he has won and throwing away the white stone was his way of showing that the scale has tipped in his favor.

Offline horseshoe_crab

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Re: New promo ... answers and scales...
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 11:35:46 AM »
Has anyone noticed how frequently the characters are referring to Smokie as a man?  As if to say "we're not dealing with gods here."  Does a being still classify as a man if he is switching physical bodies every so often?  I don't know whether to just go with the literal or to suspect this as more misdirection...