Author Topic: Urim and Thummim  (Read 4673 times)

Offline Numbers Junkie

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2010, 10:08:57 PM »
So, it all seems to make a bit more sense now. The Urim and Thummim found on the two bodies in the cave in the first season. I think the losties called them Adam and Eve.

The island seems to operate as a yin yang. There must be light and darkness, and they are locked in a eternal struggle. which also ties into the Dharma logo. From Wikipedia:
Many scholars now believe that אוּרִים (Urim) simply derives from the Hebrew term אּרּרִים (Arrim), meaning curses, and thus that Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity's view of an accused - in other words Urim and Thummim were used to answer the question innocent or guilty[1][3].

So, innocent or guilty, light or dark, luke or vader, you get my point. They are counterbalances to each other, just as jacob and the MIB are to each other, and per my theory, as Jack and Sawyer are to each other. As for Sawyer being burden by Jack for years, I agree, but then again Jacob was burdened by the MIB, sacrifcing for the greater good and all of that.

Note Locke throwing the white stone, Urim, into the ocean when he gets down to the cave and saying it is a inside joke. Dark had killed white, and the scales were now tipped in his favor.

So, while life is extended there, it does not last forever.  Jacob and the man in black had replaced adam and eve, and now there needed to be someone to replace them. That is where the candidates come in. Jacob was looking for Urim, to continue to contain Thummim (fake locke/smoke monster), who does not want to play the game anymore, and wants to be released into the world.

I don't know, but I sort of see Sawyer replacing MIB/fake locke, and one of the remaining losties replacing Jacob. Balance will always be restored, light must have dark and vice versa.

IT appears to me that death is the constant.... There seem to be three timelines, original lostie timeline, the flash back to the 70s when ben turned the wheel, and this new flash sideways timeline.  The nuclear blast at the swan station was the "incident", as well as a constant. It happened in both timelines. The concrete not only kept in the electromagnetic energy, but the nuclear fallout as well. That is why juliet said it worked. They went from three back to two.

The flash of the island underwater at the beginning of the season seems to indicate that it's destruction (and possibly the death of all of the losties in the timeline we have watched since the beginning) will work and reset their lives to what they would have been if they had never met Jacob.


I don't want to be rude, but I think you may have misunderstood the Urim v' Tumim. They are not really dark and light symbols/metaphors, they were used in Ancient biblical history to invoke advice from God when the israelites were looking for guidance. They were put inside the breastplate of the High Priest of Israel and when he asked it questions of importance, they served as a "battery" for the stones and jewels on the actual breastplate and it would light up and rearrange the answer according to the corresponding letters of each of the tribes names. [sounds fantastical, huh? then again, so does LOST]

That being said, you have a really interesting theory that seems pretty possible, I am not sure it will be Sawyer and Jack though...

-nj.
I get where you are coming from but the stones have MUCH deeper significance. Yes they were used to guide a priest, but they also symbolized light and dark, good and evil. My synopsis is also based on information I gathered about the stones from the Paulo Coehlo book "The Alchemist" where they are discussed (great read by the way, I highly recommend it).  The stones serve as counter points to each other.

From Wikipedia:
Many scholars now believe that אוּרִים (Urim) simply derives from the Hebrew term אּרּרִים (Arrim), meaning curses, and thus that Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity's view of an accused - in other words Urim and Thummim were used to answer the question innocent or guilty[1][3].

So, cursed and curses, light and dark, good and bad, Luke and Vader, you get my meaning. I also agree that it would be wrong for Sawyer to have to deal with Jack for all of eternity, but then Jacob had to deal with the MIB. Sacrifice for the greater good and all that.

Thank you, I appreciate your response. I have read the Alchemist, and you are right, it is a great book. It is to my understanding that the author used the Urim and Tumim as a symbolic reinterpretation of a biblical idea. Hence, the dark and light concepts in the book.
I say this based on a fluency in the Hebrew language and the subject matter. The word in Hebrew (Urim) is derived from the word Or=light, and the word (Tumim) is closely related to the word Tameyh=contamination or tainted. The combination of which leading to its true power.
That being said, this does bring us back to LOST, b/c if the Urim and Tumim as I see it were used as a "battery" of sorts (not stones, but 2 slips of paper with the names of God on it) that are placed behind the breastplate of the High Priest, then they would be working together, as a symbiotic relationship. This is where we get back to LOST, it means that Jacob and MIB need to be working collectively or at least parallel in order to reach their full potential. You can't have one without the other. Which would support your idea and still hold true to the biblical account...



« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 10:13:42 PM by Numbers Junkie »

Offline msdoran

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 12:49:45 PM »
So, it all seems to make a bit more sense now. The Urim and Thummim found on the two bodies in the cave in the first season. I think the losties called them Adam and Eve.

The island seems to operate as a yin yang. There must be light and darkness, and they are locked in a eternal struggle. which also ties into the Dharma logo. From Wikipedia:
Many scholars now believe that אוּרִים (Urim) simply derives from the Hebrew term אּרּרִים (Arrim), meaning curses, and thus that Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity's view of an accused - in other words Urim and Thummim were used to answer the question innocent or guilty[1][3].

So, innocent or guilty, light or dark, luke or vader, you get my point. They are counterbalances to each other, just as jacob and the MIB are to each other, and per my theory, as Jack and Sawyer are to each other. As for Sawyer being burden by Jack for years, I agree, but then again Jacob was burdened by the MIB, sacrifcing for the greater good and all of that.

Note Locke throwing the white stone, Urim, into the ocean when he gets down to the cave and saying it is a inside joke. Dark had killed white, and the scales were now tipped in his favor.

So, while life is extended there, it does not last forever.  Jacob and the man in black had replaced adam and eve, and now there needed to be someone to replace them. That is where the candidates come in. Jacob was looking for Urim, to continue to contain Thummim (fake locke/smoke monster), who does not want to play the game anymore, and wants to be released into the world.

I don't know, but I sort of see Sawyer replacing MIB/fake locke, and one of the remaining losties replacing Jacob. Balance will always be restored, light must have dark and vice versa.

IT appears to me that death is the constant.... There seem to be three timelines, original lostie timeline, the flash back to the 70s when ben turned the wheel, and this new flash sideways timeline.  The nuclear blast at the swan station was the "incident", as well as a constant. It happened in both timelines. The concrete not only kept in the electromagnetic energy, but the nuclear fallout as well. That is why juliet said it worked. They went from three back to two.

The flash of the island underwater at the beginning of the season seems to indicate that it's destruction (and possibly the death of all of the losties in the timeline we have watched since the beginning) will work and reset their lives to what they would have been if they had never met Jacob.


I don't want to be rude, but I think you may have misunderstood the Urim v' Tumim. They are not really dark and light symbols/metaphors, they were used in Ancient biblical history to invoke advice from God when the israelites were looking for guidance. They were put inside the breastplate of the High Priest of Israel and when he asked it questions of importance, they served as a "battery" for the stones and jewels on the actual breastplate and it would light up and rearrange the answer according to the corresponding letters of each of the tribes names. [sounds fantastical, huh? then again, so does LOST]

That being said, you have a really interesting theory that seems pretty possible, I am not sure it will be Sawyer and Jack though...

-nj.
I get where you are coming from but the stones have MUCH deeper significance. Yes they were used to guide a priest, but they also symbolized light and dark, good and evil. My synopsis is also based on information I gathered about the stones from the Paulo Coehlo book "The Alchemist" where they are discussed (great read by the way, I highly recommend it).  The stones serve as counter points to each other.

From Wikipedia:
Many scholars now believe that אוּרִים (Urim) simply derives from the Hebrew term אּרּרִים (Arrim), meaning curses, and thus that Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity's view of an accused - in other words Urim and Thummim were used to answer the question innocent or guilty[1][3].

So, cursed and curses, light and dark, good and bad, Luke and Vader, you get my meaning. I also agree that it would be wrong for Sawyer to have to deal with Jack for all of eternity, but then Jacob had to deal with the MIB. Sacrifice for the greater good and all that.

Thank you, I appreciate your response. I have read the Alchemist, and you are right, it is a great book. It is to my understanding that the author used the Urim and Tumim as a symbolic reinterpretation of a biblical idea. Hence, the dark and light concepts in the book.
I say this based on a fluency in the Hebrew language and the subject matter. The word in Hebrew (Urim) is derived from the word Or=light, and the word (Tumim) is closely related to the word Tameyh=contamination or tainted. The combination of which leading to its true power.
That being said, this does bring us back to LOST, b/c if the Urim and Tumim as I see it were used as a "battery" of sorts (not stones, but 2 slips of paper with the names of God on it) that are placed behind the breastplate of the High Priest, then they would be working together, as a symbiotic relationship. This is where we get back to LOST, it means that Jacob and MIB need to be working collectively or at least parallel in order to reach their full potential. You can't have one without the other. Which would support your idea and still hold true to the biblical account...
Honestly, it is such a pleasure to have an intelligent discussion with someone who knows their stuff.  It just seems to me that the writers of lost, may be using a little artistic license here, and may be using Urim and Thummim as an analogy to the yin yang. Light and dark keeping each other in check. I don't necessarily know if they are working to reach their full potential, or if they are simply serving as counterweights to each other to keep the balance of nature in order. Which is why the Island is pretty pissed at the MIB right now, as evidenced by the appearance of the boy (who I believe is an avatar of Jacob as a youth that the Island used to get the MIB's attention), and the warning that the MIB is not playing by the rules.

Your last post was very informative though, and I always appreciate hearing from someone who can read and understand a subject matter in its native tongue.