Author Topic: Urim and Thummim  (Read 4702 times)

Offline msdoran

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Urim and Thummim
« on: February 17, 2010, 11:53:50 AM »
So, it all seems to make a bit more sense now. The Urim and Thummim found on the two bodies in the cave in the first season. I think the losties called them Adam and Eve.

The island seems to operate as a yin yang. There must be light and darkness, and they are locked in a eternal struggle. which also ties into the Dharma logo.

Note Locke throwing the white stone, Urim, into the ocean when he gets down to the cave and saying it is a inside joke. Dark had killed white, and the scales were now tipped in his favor.

So, while life is extended there, it does not last forever.  Jacob and the man in black had replaced adam and eve, and now there needed to be someone to replace them. That is where the candidates come in. Jacob was looking for Urim, to continue to contain Thummim (fake locke/smoke monster), who does not want to play the game anymore, and wants to be released into the world.

I don't know, but I sort of see Sawyer replacing MIB/fake locke, and one of the remaining losties replacing Jacob. Balance will always be restored, light must have dark and vice versa.

IT appears to me that death is the constant.... There seem to be three timelines, original lostie timeline, the flash back to the 70s when ben turned the wheel, and this new flash sideways timeline.  The nuclear blast at the swan station was the "incident", as well as a constant. It happened in both timelines. The concrete not only kept in the electromagnetic energy, but the nuclear fallout as well. That is why juliet said it worked. They went from three back to two.

The flash of the island underwater at the beginning of the season seems to indicate that it's destruction (and possibly the death of all of the losties in the timeline we have watched since the beginning) will work and reset their lives to what they would have been if they had never met Jacob.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 11:56:54 AM by msdoran »

Offline KoKoNut

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 01:17:13 PM »
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I don't know, but I sort of see Sawyer replacing MIB/fake locke, and one of the remaining losties replacing Jacob. Balance will always be restored, light must have dark and vice versa.

What a great write up msdoran! 

MIB is "recruiting" someone to take his place.  Perhaps Jacob KNEW that MIB was going to somehow find a way to "kill" him and that was why he (Jacob) was out there trying to find his own replacement? 

So if if Sawyer replaces MIB, then I wonder who will replace Jacob if this is how it all pans out.  It's almost like they are two opposites...Locke and Jack...and now maybe Sawyer and Jack?   

Offline msdoran

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 01:26:34 PM »
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I don't know, but I sort of see Sawyer replacing MIB/fake locke, and one of the remaining losties replacing Jacob. Balance will always be restored, light must have dark and vice versa.

What a great write up msdoran! 

MIB is "recruiting" someone to take his place.  Perhaps Jacob KNEW that MIB was going to somehow find a way to "kill" him and that was why he (Jacob) was out there trying to find his own replacement? 

So if if Sawyer replaces MIB, then I wonder who will replace Jacob if this is how it all pans out.  It's almost like they are two opposites...Locke and Jack...and now maybe Sawyer and Jack?   

Thanks Kokonut. I have been coming to this forum for years, but just don't post much. I am not sure where they are going to go with Sawyer. IT seems obvious that they are leading us to him replacing MIB, but all along have been hinting at the hero under the surface with him. When the bullets fly he is right there, charging over the top, doing the right thing.

I think it would be really interesting if Jack replaced the MIB and sawyer replaced Jacob.  Jack has always had this dark undercurrent to him. He was forced into the leadership role, and really acts out the part, but I can see him snapping a lot faster than I can see Sawyer. Plus the smoke monster has always favored using Christian, and I can so see Jack, with his daddy issues, getting tricked by MIB/Christian into doing what he wants him to do.

Sawyer is acting now like he is down for getting off the island and getting his, but I bet you, when push comes to shove it will be Sawyer who steps up to the plate and becomes the islands new protector.

One other quick question, if someone knew about the numbers (they were broadcast back in the day weren't they), why not just bring those numbers to the island? Why bring (and kill) all of the other numbers we saw scratched out on the wall.

Offline KoKoNut

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 01:35:59 PM »
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I think it would be really interesting if Jack replaced the MIB and sawyer replaced Jacob.  Jack has always had this dark undercurrent to him. He was forced into the leadership role, and really acts out the part, but I can see him snapping a lot faster than I can see Sawyer. Plus the smoke monster has always favored using Christian, and I can so see Jack, with his daddy issues, getting tricked by MIB/Christian into doing what he wants him to do.

I like this theory!  I can really see this happening and it does explain MIB's use of Christian. Cood call!

Offline msdoran

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 02:57:13 PM »
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I think it would be really interesting if Jack replaced the MIB and sawyer replaced Jacob.  Jack has always had this dark undercurrent to him. He was forced into the leadership role, and really acts out the part, but I can see him snapping a lot faster than I can see Sawyer. Plus the smoke monster has always favored using Christian, and I can so see Jack, with his daddy issues, getting tricked by MIB/Christian into doing what he wants him to do.

I like this theory!  I can really see this happening and it does explain MIB's use of Christian. Cood call!
Why thank you! Coming from someone with six stars who is a lot more avid in discussing this show then I have been I consider that a compliment.

Offline lostfromthestart

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 02:59:03 PM »
Why not just recruit Uma Thurman to replace both?

Offline msdoran

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 03:09:46 PM »
Why not just recruit Uma Thurman to replace both?
Something to consider, now that Claire has gone completely loopy there is an opening for a pale faced waif on the island.

Offline jugdish

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 03:14:20 PM »
Good thoughts, Just not sure if it is going to be Sawyer. I think Sawyer is pulling a long con on Smokie. Once he say that kid in the woods he say something in fake locke he just don't trust.


Offline Madam P

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 03:49:42 PM »

I think it would be really interesting if Jack replaced the MIB and Sawyer replaced Jacob. 

Oh, God forbid!  Would you really wish that on Sawyer?  An eternity of having to put up with nobody but Jack?  Aaaaarrrgh!  If we thought MIB wanted to kill Jacob so badly, just imagine how much Sawyer would want to kill Jack!  It boggles the mind.

Re: the other numbers/names we saw scratched out on the wall -- I'm not sure what you're asking, but I took it that they were basically just previous "batches" of "candidates"... they could be centuries old.  Some of those numbers could've been nautical coordinates for the Black Rock or something, for example.  None had worked out yet.

Offline Numbers Junkie

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 06:31:24 PM »
Good thoughts, Just not sure if it is going to be Sawyer. I think Sawyer is pulling a long con on Smokie. Once he say that kid in the woods he say something in fake locke he just don't trust.



Thanks Jugdish, I agree Sawyer knows exactly what he is doing and he is totally playing MIB, you can tell from seeing the boy in the woods conversation and the fact that MIB denied it, Sawyer is the con of all cons and he is the one with the upper hand (or so I think), letting MIB think he has the advantage. It will be interesting to see how this plotline unfolds...

« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 06:39:01 PM by Numbers Junkie »

Offline Numbers Junkie

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 06:37:58 PM »
So, it all seems to make a bit more sense now. The Urim and Thummim found on the two bodies in the cave in the first season. I think the losties called them Adam and Eve.

The island seems to operate as a yin yang. There must be light and darkness, and they are locked in a eternal struggle. which also ties into the Dharma logo.

Note Locke throwing the white stone, Urim, into the ocean when he gets down to the cave and saying it is a inside joke. Dark had killed white, and the scales were now tipped in his favor.

So, while life is extended there, it does not last forever.  Jacob and the man in black had replaced adam and eve, and now there needed to be someone to replace them. That is where the candidates come in. Jacob was looking for Urim, to continue to contain Thummim (fake locke/smoke monster), who does not want to play the game anymore, and wants to be released into the world.

I don't know, but I sort of see Sawyer replacing MIB/fake locke, and one of the remaining losties replacing Jacob. Balance will always be restored, light must have dark and vice versa.

IT appears to me that death is the constant.... There seem to be three timelines, original lostie timeline, the flash back to the 70s when ben turned the wheel, and this new flash sideways timeline.  The nuclear blast at the swan station was the "incident", as well as a constant. It happened in both timelines. The concrete not only kept in the electromagnetic energy, but the nuclear fallout as well. That is why juliet said it worked. They went from three back to two.

The flash of the island underwater at the beginning of the season seems to indicate that it's destruction (and possibly the death of all of the losties in the timeline we have watched since the beginning) will work and reset their lives to what they would have been if they had never met Jacob.


I don't want to be rude, but I think you may have misunderstood the Urim v' Tumim. They are not really dark and light symbols/metaphors, they were used in Ancient biblical history to invoke advice from God when the israelites were looking for guidance. They were put inside the breastplate of the High Priest of Israel and when he asked it questions of importance, they served as a "battery" for the stones and jewels on the actual breastplate and it would light up and rearrange the answer according to the corresponding letters of each of the tribes names. [sounds fantastical, huh? then again, so does LOST]

That being said, you have a really interesting theory that seems pretty possible, I am not sure it will be Sawyer and Jack though...

-nj.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 06:40:23 PM by Numbers Junkie »

Offline KoKoNut

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 06:52:46 PM »

I think it would be really interesting if Jack replaced the MIB and Sawyer replaced Jacob. 

Oh, God forbid!  Would you really wish that on Sawyer?  An eternity of having to put up with nobody but Jack?  Aaaaarrrgh!  If we thought MIB wanted to kill Jacob so badly, just imagine how much Sawyer would want to kill Jack!  It boggles the mind.


LOL Madame P!  I never thought of it that way! LOL! I was so interested in the storyline that I didn't think about the actual outcome!  Poor Sawyer indeed! Now I wouldn't mind one bit being stuck with Sawyer on the island for eternity. Yeah. I'd have no problem at all with that!!  ;D

Offline Walkabout V.2

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 09:33:30 AM »
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I think it would be really interesting if Jack replaced the MIB and sawyer replaced Jacob.  Jack has always had this dark undercurrent to him. He was forced into the leadership role, and really acts out the part, but I can see him snapping a lot faster than I can see Sawyer. Plus the smoke monster has always favored using Christian, and I can so see Jack, with his daddy issues, getting tricked by MIB/Christian into doing what he wants him to do.

I like this theory!  I can really see this happening and it does explain MIB's use of Christian. Cood call!
The like this theory because it is supported by Sawyer / Jack backstory. MIB wants off the Island and Jacob wants to stay and protect the island. The one consistent thing about Jack is his desire to leave the island. Sawyer told Kate after their "romp" in Dharmaville before the freighter attack that he has nothing to go back to. The implied hatred from Sawyer to Jack is always a quick reaction from Sawyer. Jack on the other hand has always had a slow burn about Sawyer. Remember the meds and poker for guns it just adds up( which means it won't happen). Imagine Jack and Sawyer on the beach and Jack turning to Sawyer " do you know how bad I want to kill you?". Ji Yeon, Aaron, Walt can be central figures in FX new show LOST: The Next Generation. Just sayin'.

Offline Numbers Junkie

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 09:52:14 AM »
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I think it would be really interesting if Jack replaced the MIB and sawyer replaced Jacob.  Jack has always had this dark undercurrent to him. He was forced into the leadership role, and really acts out the part, but I can see him snapping a lot faster than I can see Sawyer. Plus the smoke monster has always favored using Christian, and I can so see Jack, with his daddy issues, getting tricked by MIB/Christian into doing what he wants him to do.

I like this theory!  I can really see this happening and it does explain MIB's use of Christian. Cood call!
The like this theory because it is supported by Sawyer / Jack backstory. MIB wants off the Island and Jacob wants to stay and protect the island. The one consistent thing about Jack is his desire to leave the island. Sawyer told Kate after their "romp" in Dharmaville before the freighter attack that he has nothing to go back to. The implied hatred from Sawyer to Jack is always a quick reaction from Sawyer. Jack on the other hand has always had a slow burn about Sawyer. Remember the meds and poker for guns it just adds up( which means it won't happen). Imagine Jack and Sawyer on the beach and Jack turning to Sawyer " do you know how bad I want to kill you?".


Ji Yeon, Aaron, Walt can be central figures in FX new show LOST: The Next Generation. Just sayin'.

It wouldn't be a surprise at all...and truly hilarious!

Offline msdoran

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Re: Urim and Thummim
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 06:21:26 PM »
So, it all seems to make a bit more sense now. The Urim and Thummim found on the two bodies in the cave in the first season. I think the losties called them Adam and Eve.

The island seems to operate as a yin yang. There must be light and darkness, and they are locked in a eternal struggle. which also ties into the Dharma logo. From Wikipedia:
Many scholars now believe that אוּרִים (Urim) simply derives from the Hebrew term אּרּרִים (Arrim), meaning curses, and thus that Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity's view of an accused - in other words Urim and Thummim were used to answer the question innocent or guilty[1][3].

So, innocent or guilty, light or dark, luke or vader, you get my point. They are counterbalances to each other, just as jacob and the MIB are to each other, and per my theory, as Jack and Sawyer are to each other. As for Sawyer being burden by Jack for years, I agree, but then again Jacob was burdened by the MIB, sacrifcing for the greater good and all of that.

Note Locke throwing the white stone, Urim, into the ocean when he gets down to the cave and saying it is a inside joke. Dark had killed white, and the scales were now tipped in his favor.

So, while life is extended there, it does not last forever.  Jacob and the man in black had replaced adam and eve, and now there needed to be someone to replace them. That is where the candidates come in. Jacob was looking for Urim, to continue to contain Thummim (fake locke/smoke monster), who does not want to play the game anymore, and wants to be released into the world.

I don't know, but I sort of see Sawyer replacing MIB/fake locke, and one of the remaining losties replacing Jacob. Balance will always be restored, light must have dark and vice versa.

IT appears to me that death is the constant.... There seem to be three timelines, original lostie timeline, the flash back to the 70s when ben turned the wheel, and this new flash sideways timeline.  The nuclear blast at the swan station was the "incident", as well as a constant. It happened in both timelines. The concrete not only kept in the electromagnetic energy, but the nuclear fallout as well. That is why juliet said it worked. They went from three back to two.

The flash of the island underwater at the beginning of the season seems to indicate that it's destruction (and possibly the death of all of the losties in the timeline we have watched since the beginning) will work and reset their lives to what they would have been if they had never met Jacob.


I don't want to be rude, but I think you may have misunderstood the Urim v' Tumim. They are not really dark and light symbols/metaphors, they were used in Ancient biblical history to invoke advice from God when the israelites were looking for guidance. They were put inside the breastplate of the High Priest of Israel and when he asked it questions of importance, they served as a "battery" for the stones and jewels on the actual breastplate and it would light up and rearrange the answer according to the corresponding letters of each of the tribes names. [sounds fantastical, huh? then again, so does LOST]

That being said, you have a really interesting theory that seems pretty possible, I am not sure it will be Sawyer and Jack though...

-nj.
I get where you are coming from but the stones have MUCH deeper significance. Yes they were used to guide a priest, but they also symbolized light and dark, good and evil. My synopsis is also based on information I gathered about the stones from the Paulo Coehlo book "The Alchemist" where they are discussed (great read by the way, I highly recommend it).  The stones serve as counter points to each other.

From Wikipedia:
Many scholars now believe that אוּרִים (Urim) simply derives from the Hebrew term אּרּרִים (Arrim), meaning curses, and thus that Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity's view of an accused - in other words Urim and Thummim were used to answer the question innocent or guilty[1][3].

So, cursed and curses, light and dark, good and bad, Luke and Vader, you get my meaning. I also agree that it would be wrong for Sawyer to have to deal with Jack for all of eternity, but then Jacob had to deal with the MIB. Sacrifice for the greater good and all that.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 06:27:43 PM by msdoran »