Author Topic: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?  (Read 4154 times)

Offline ericd543

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Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« on: February 17, 2010, 02:03:27 AM »
He is representing free will. Okay, I can get behind that. In real life I feel I have free will. "Don't tell me what I can't do!" Love it!  Tho Lost is getting me to examine the science and my feelings more closely. Warning, personal projections ahead.

Crinmeny! I recently watched the BBC Horizon program Infinity and Beyond and it blew my mind. "Everything that could be, is."  Infinity, bay-bee! It's the stuff of gods. It could be philosophical bs, but math is for real. I'm just a student of this stuff.

but free will… talk to me. What else you got?

Am going to use Lil's SWM for Smokey/Whatever/MiB until we get a better name. The TLA works well at representing my frustration with not being given a name for SWM.

My speculation is that SWM has a story to tell, it will reveal how the island works, the game he is having with Jacob, and how it is a game with rules, as opposed to laws. He's tired. He's trapped. I'm feeling for him already.

Hey, I heard that!

I think SWM will lay down a good argument for his side of the story. I'm looking forward to it. I think he was straight with Sawyer tonight. SWM wants to get back to living a life of free will. No more nudges from a well meaning Jacob who just wants to reunite with his mommy. nod to MangoBingo's theory

SWM will tell Sawyer about the how the others believe in a multiverse theory of everything. He's recruiting Sawyer. Sawyer listens.

Okay, so the double-slit experiment demonstrates the duality of nature. Photons are both particle-like and wave-like and this can be demonstrated scientifically. The photon is going through both slits at the same time. It is in two places at once. Damn, I miss Faraday. Sawyer won't sit still for this kind of lecture, unless… if Faraday, who should be in the SWM's repertoire, were to 'splain it to him… hmmm…

"...and that's why you can experience things like time travel, but there is only one universe, eventually that photon is observed, it is experienced."

And we are all variables.

Ok. I can buy this.

And SWM continues, "So what? So what if the universe is a multiverse. What really matters is that your choices matter. So what if you can wrap your mind around the concept of infinity, so what if it is possible that a portal exists that makes anything possible. Look. Dharma built one right over there. What are you going to do? Use it selfishly like Ben did? Look where that got him. Here, I'll show you. While we're at it take a look at John Locke's life. (shows him unhappy version) Pathetic. Don't play that game. We don't need no divine intervention. You can leave here and love again, or not, but you get to make your own choices, be your own man."

wiki blurb on existentialism:
The early 19th century philosopher Søren Kierkegaard, posthumously regarded as the father of existentialism,  maintained that the individual is solely responsible for giving his own life meaning and living that life passionately and sincerely, in spite of many existential obstacles and distractions including despair, angst, absurdity, alienation, and boredom.

edit: Hurley found a book by Kierkegaard in Montand's skeleton's backpack link

Anyway, Sawyer buys into all of this existential stuff, he's on board, and he works with SWM to complete their escape plan. Only downside is having to kill all of the others including his 815 buddies. Hey, they believe in reincarnation anyway, lol. And at the S6 finale ultra-moment Sawyer turns on SWM and cuts off his head with his lightsabre.

What do ya think?

main point: SWM is doing some recruitin' and has a story to tell. I think it will have an existential/scientific point of view. Sawyer is a good guy and will get the last laugh.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 02:15:50 AM by ericd543 »

Offline Madam P

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 03:24:48 PM »

 And at the S6 finale ultra-moment Sawyer turns on SWM and cuts off his head with his lightsabre.

What do ya think?


I'm on board with this -- I thought this exact thing last night.  Except I think the lightsabre will continue on in its arc and take off Sawyer's head as well. 

I hate the very idea of it, but it seems the creators of this story will insist on Jack Shepherd as being the central character / hero.  (Gag me.   ::) ) I am very much afraid that the sacrifice Sawyer first made when he jumped out of the helicopter was foreshadowing a later, much more significant sacrifice.  The universe course-correcting... Sawyer is meant to sacrifice himself (ultimate punishment for all his self-perceived shortcomings) to save others... ironic because he was originally presented in Season One as the guy who was only about himself...

Ugh, now I'm all depressed.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 07:10:04 PM »
Frankly Sawyer is going to con SWM he did it to us before with the guns and if Sawyer figured out this was not John Locke and he saw that little boy and Richard didn't well, I am calling no light sabers. 


Offline Sweet Old Lady

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 09:38:54 PM »
I just have one little quibble, and that is that it seems to me that Jacob represents Free Will and SWM represents Fate. 

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 08:13:52 AM »
But if Jacob touched them and his touching them influences their destiny/fate-  I know SWM/MIB said Jacob touched you and your choices brought you here, so if I take the definition of destiny/fate.  Because we are seeing a timeline where the lives of the people touched have a different "life"  some things they will do no matter what.  K

I do not know how SWM is fate- I see him as someone who is not happy with his circumstances period.  Miserable basically

How are you SOL I am glad to see you

Noun
•S: (n) destiny, fate (an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future) •S: (n) destiny, fate (the ultimate agency regarded as predetermining the course of events (often personified as a woman)) "we are helpless in the face of destiny"
•S: (n) fortune, destiny, fate, luck, lot, circumstances, portion (your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you)) "whatever my fortune may be"; "deserved a better fate"; "has a happy lot"; "the luck of the Irish"; "a victim of circumstances"; "success that was her portion"
Verb
•S: (v) destine, fate, doom, designate (decree or designate beforehand) "She was destined to become a great pianist"

Offline ericd543

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 10:16:11 AM »
I just have one little quibble, and that is that it seems to me that Jacob represents Free Will and SWM represents Fate. 

I know that Jacob reminded Ben that he had a choice just before Ben did the stabby murder thing. That would seem to indicate he wants Ben to use his free will. but what if it was more of a statement than a reminder?

What if that was a backhanded compliment? He was saying it for SWM/MiB as much as for Ben. "You have a choice" was a tip-o-the-hat to SWM's success in achieving the loophole condition. SWM motivated Ben with a replay of Alex's death, and then reminding Ben, using John Locke's body for good measure, that he could not understand how Ben would not want to kill Jacob. But SWM didn't make Ben do anything. Ben killed Jacob of his own free will. A condition that may have been required by the rules. Ben was exactly what SWM needed.

"You have a choice" was an ironic reminder of Ben's failing as a leader of Jacob's followers. It also makes sense to me that Jacob truly felt sorry for Ben, so tragically deceived by to carry out murder.

I am thinking that Jacob believers try to live according to Jacob's Laws. SWM/MiB is pitching free will.

Just occurred to me how Juliet had that line at the end of the book club scene, "And I thought we had free will..." and then the plane crash happens. She's also the one who changed her mind and got on board with Jack's plan for the atomic reset. And of course, "It worked."  hmmm...

Could SWM/MIB's plan of free will and Dimension X turn out to be what is best for our Losties?

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 12:34:45 PM »
I think that, even if Jacob believes in free will, he still knew that there was a strong chance Ben would kill him. Based on his tone ("What about you?), he may have even encouraged it. If Jacob steered the candidates toward the island, was he influencing their decisions or guiding their fates? Is the reason Kate's name isn't on the wall that, even though he steered her toward being a candidate, she exerted her free will and made poor decisions and now she's out of the running? If that's the case, he's doing the same thing MiB did: manipulating them. And the only reason to manipulate is because people make their own choices. If you knew that whatever happened, happened, why bother trying to influence them? The difference between MiB and Jacob is that Jacob is passive about it, he touches them once. MiB is aggressive about it, using persuasion and coercion and a whole bunch of other psychological warfare. Right now, he's conning Sawyer. Not by being dishonest, just by presenting the situation from a different angle, the one that he know will get Sawyer to trust him and do whatever he says. He'll try to make Sawyer think it's his idea, and I don't think it'll work, because Sawyer's been playing that game all his life.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 07:36:59 PM »
Jacob knew he would die so his actionso this point were to bring them to where they neeed to be

Offline Sweet Old Lady

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 05:41:39 AM »
But if Jacob touched them and his touching them influences their destiny/fate-  I know SWM/MIB said Jacob touched you and your choices brought you here, so if I take the definition of destiny/fate.  Because we are seeing a timeline where the lives of the people touched have a different "life"  some things they will do no matter what.  K

I do not know how SWM is fate- I see him as someone who is not happy with his circumstances period.  Miserable basically

How are you SOL I am glad to see you

Noun
•S: (n) destiny, fate (an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future) •S: (n) destiny, fate (the ultimate agency regarded as predetermining the course of events (often personified as a woman)) "we are helpless in the face of destiny"
•S: (n) fortune, destiny, fate, luck, lot, circumstances, portion (your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you)) "whatever my fortune may be"; "deserved a better fate"; "has a happy lot"; "the luck of the Irish"; "a victim of circumstances"; "success that was her portion"
Verb
•S: (v) destine, fate, doom, designate (decree or designate beforehand) "She was destined to become a great pianist"
Hi, LiL.  I'm happy to see you, too.  I say that SWM/MIB is Fate because he says "It always ends the same," which means there's no alternative, no choice, no free will involved.  That's Fate.  Jacob reminded Ben that he has a choice.  Jacob's followers say the Losties have to choose of their own free will.  We haven't seen MIB's followers yet, if he has followers.  I'm getting excited to see how this plays out.

Offline ericd543

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2010, 07:04:38 PM »
I think that, even if Jacob believes in free will, he still knew that there was a strong chance Ben would kill him. Based on his tone ("What about you?), he may have even encouraged it.

Your idea that Jacob believes in free will gave me an idea.

Maybe the conflict between Jacob and MIB is more of a transition than a battle. Jacob goes knowingly into the knife because he concedes the loophole condition (Ben) was achieved, except for one last round, RE: "they're coming". The transition would be from an age where mankind lives with divine guidance to one where he is on his own and Jacob is dead.

Quote
If Jacob steered the candidates toward the island, was he influencing their decisions or guiding their fates?

I definitely see that as the touch of fate. There are times I see Jack like a salmon swimming up stream, from his urge to go back to the island, to his gut feeling that Faraday's plan would work. He felt compelled to do it. I think that it was Jacob's touch that gave him that compulsion.

I also think the bomb worked, and when the wave function collapses, the dimensional rift heals, and they will have their lives in dimension-X. They will be free from their previous lives of destiny. No winner, just a transition from Jacob's way the world works to MIB's, from an age where the gods rule, to one without them.

Quote
Is the reason Kate's name isn't on the wall that, even though he steered her toward being a candidate, she exerted her free will and made poor decisions and now she's out of the running? If that's the case, he's doing the same thing MiB did: manipulating them. And the only reason to manipulate is because people make their own choices. If you knew that whatever happened, happened, why bother trying to influence them? The difference between MiB and Jacob is that Jacob is passive about it, he touches them once. MiB is aggressive about it, using persuasion and coercion and a whole bunch of other psychological warfare.

I'm not sure about Kate's role in this. It is odd that she was brought to the island and then not listed as a candidate. Maybe it was something she did, lol

But when Jacob touches you, you come to the island. Isn't that what the cave showed us? A number, a name and they even flashed back to show us Jacob's touches.

Ben realizes that MIB tricked him. Trickery is MIB's bag bay-bee! But even psychological warfare is just talk, no touching. MIB just doesn't have the power of the touch, nor would he want it. If we see MIB touching someone and giving them a destiny then my theory is kaput.

I think Ben was not touched by Jacob and that's why Ben has free will. MIB would argue that a touch is worse than a trick.

Also, Jacob wove a tapestry with one figure on top with strings tied to the figures on the next level down. "may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires"  My interpretation is that if you accept God's plan all will be good, but you need to accept the plan. You need to believe in Jacob.

Quote
Right now, he's conning Sawyer. Not by being dishonest, just by presenting the situation from a different angle, the one that he know will get Sawyer to trust him and do whatever he says. He'll try to make Sawyer think it's his idea, and I don't think it'll work, because Sawyer's been playing that game all his life.

In the cave MIB tells Sawyer that the island is nothing special.  "That's the joke. There is nothing to protect it from. It's just a damned island, and it will be perfectly fine without Jacob or you, or any of the other people whose lives he's wasted. "

I think MIB is making the case that mankind doesn't need protecting. Mankind might even be better off without divine intervention (Jacob's touch) or it might be worse, but you would have ownership of your choices, and that's what is most important.

Understanding our aloneness in the universe is part of what the existential philosophy is about. (from what little I've read and understood, any help on existentialism is appreciated)

It can be a dark realization… no higher power is out there, no one answers your prayers, you are not special in God's eyes.

Or it can be liberating. There is no destiny. You are in charge of your own life. The world should not come with a pre-packaged meaning to things. We all create our own meaning. Life's only purpose is to live it.

I think that will be the MIB's angle.
 
We know the Valenzetti equation predicted the end of the world using the numbers, so why is Jacob bringing these numbers-slash-people together? Richard warns us that MIB wants to kill everyone, but whose followers are holed up in the temple making poison pills? Jacob's followers, that's who.

The MIB could be a big fat liar and know all about being tasked by an even higher power to play this game, but he's just getting his pieces in position for the final conflict. MIB wants to go home. To rejoin God in heaven, fallen angel style, maybe?

I could be quite wrong on this but wanted to post it before tonight's episode. I can't wait to find out more. I am soooo addicted!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 08:30:39 PM by ericd543 »

Offline ericd543

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 08:09:34 PM »
I say that SWM/MIB is Fate because he says "It always ends the same," which means there's no alternative, no choice, no free will involved.  That's Fate.

I think the MIB was saying "it always ends the same" like he's just tired of playing this game ad nauseum. Jacob's ability to put pieces on the board wherever he likes makes it practically impossible to beat him.

Here's something I was writing for elsewhere but I'll put it here. Hopefully it's not too off target.

Quote
A Backgammon Proposition

In backgammon there is the challenge of a proposition. At some point in a match you might think your opponent made a bad move. You might point this out to them.  If your opponent disagrees, that's fine. If he disagrees with you a lot you can challenge them to a proposition.

In a proposition you agree to play this position until the end of the game. (like tennis there are many games in a match) And then play it from that position again, over and over, again and again, many many times, until a set number of games or until someone concedes they've had enough.

A typical proposition might be to play it 50 times for $5 per game. Gammons pay double.  And then you roll it out. You start from that position and play it until the end.  But playing for money puts some real-world limits on how long it can go. Jacob and MIB could go on for ages.

It can get complicated, for example, you might be betting on percentage of something occurring, See about doubling and dropping below.

Oh, yeah, sometimes players agree to play out a prop on a computer. That way you can really put the numbers to it and see who wins.

So Sweet old Lady, you got me a thinkin'.  No wonder MIB wants to kill Jacob. He's Jacob's eternal backgammon playing prisoner!

Until Ben comes along. Ben was not put into place like Jacob's men were. He's just that one in a million combination of rolls that lets MIB win. Ya play backgammon long enough and you feel like you've seen every position, every game. Some of stories bg players have of literal "million-to-one shots" are amazing.

Quote
Jacob reminded Ben that he has a choice.  Jacob's followers say the Losties have to choose of their own free will.  We haven't seen MIB's followers yet, if he has followers.  I'm getting excited to see how this plays out.

It is interesting that the Jacob followers, Ben I think said it, that you have to choose of your own free will. This is a thorn in my theory. For now I am thinking they are just being tricky, giving an the illusion of free will so the pill of divine guidance goes down better.

Is it possible, that in Jacob's world, you could think you have free will but in reality you are being controlled? It wouldn't surprise me if Jacob tried to make this argument. You are free with just a teeny tiny, it's barely a smooch, really, just a smidge of destiny. See? You can't hardly even tell the difference!

This just occurred to me... Jacob wouldn't want to tell his followers that's how it really works. They might rebel. He might want to keep his destiny touches a secret, shrouded in mystery perhaps?

Is it possible that the Temple others are MIB followers?  This is not a well thought out bit of speculation, but it fits with the existential idea of morality, i.e. murder is not necessarily a bad thing. The others seem willing to kill people with little consideration e.g. Widmore's order to kill baby Alex, Dogen's order to simply "shoot them" when they're caught in the temple.

I am way excited too to see how this turns out too. Dogen has foreshadowed that sometimes his people don't like the decisions he makes. I am hoping we get a peek inside some rituals inside the temple. Something more about what it means to live on the island as an Other.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 08:34:02 PM by ericd543 »

Offline RM

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 05:59:17 PM »
I think both Jacob and MIB understand that people have Free Will.  They have differed in how they go about influences the pieces in their game to choose the actions they want.  Even Jacob is now saying that some people you just tell them what they have to do (telling Hurley in the cab that he should return -- and Hurley says he came back because Jacob told him to), but that with Jack it wouldn't work to tell him everything because he has to believe he's special, meant to do it (even though he was originally a Man of Science).

MIB's sense of "inevitability" is more along the lines of human nature will never change, so Jacob's experiments in getting a voluntary candidate to replace him (if that's really what Jacob is about) is futile to MIB because people always behave the same way -- "they corrupt, they kill, etc."

If their only goal is to find replacements so they can get off the Island, I'll be disappointed.

Offline ericd543

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 12:42:56 AM »
I hear what you're saying about how Jacob and MIB both understand that people have free will, and perhaps I am mistaken in using this as a point that separates them. I've been reading more about existentialism and came across this article at Associated Content.

Quote from: Nietzsche Versus Kierkegaard - Existentialist Battles Over Christianity
When compared side to side, Kierkegaard and Nietzsche both have similar but also differing viewpoints. They would both agree that it is the individual choice of human beings to choose what actions they take and what they believe is right or wrong. The two men, however, had a different way of obtaining this conclusion. Nietzsche came to this point by announcing the death of God and deciding that it is up to the individual, not an organized religion, to determine right from wrong. Kierkegaard held strong to his ideas of Christianity and felt that to live a meaningful life, one must live his life through God's will. However, in both, it comes down to what we make of it and how we decide to live our life.

So maybe the MIB vs Jacob is more like Nietzsche vs Kierkegaard.

It's more likely that existentialism fits into the greater theme of philosophers in Lost. I'd just like to see MIB make a strong case in his recruitment to the "darkside", really tell us what our losties are up against, what they are signing up for if they join MIB.  MIB seems willing to give answers to these questions. Sawyer referred to him as the guy with answers, and MIB seemed surprised that Jacob hadn't told Richard what it was all about.

Lost will often show us the other side of the story. So that is part of the reason why I'm hoping SWM/MIB makes a compelling argument. I think it could be really cool, but I can't get my head around all it yet.

I've been doing some reading and would like to share some of the pieces I've found. Some fit into Lost amazingly well, if you ask me. ;-)

Fooling ourselves is the ultimate con. I got this quote from a book review on Existentialism for Dummies, which Amazon informs me has shipped. yay!

Quote from: Amazon reviewer of Existentialism for Dummies
As the comedian Richard Pryor has put it: The ultimate test is whether we can survive death? So far, no one we know has passed that test. So no matter how sophisticated and complex our neurotic machinery may become, or the reality games that it spews, we know that in the end our immortality tricks will not work. We can invent myths, in which we make ourselves its heroes; and we can build elaborate monuments to ourselves, but in the end there are no tricks or immortality projects that will allow us to overcome death. Existentialism reminds us that our reality, our meanings and our elaborate language games are just individual or collective self-defined projects in self-delusion, and little more. And in the end, that is of course the ultimate absurdity.

Here are some quotes from existentialists that seem to resonate with Lost.

Soren Kierkegaard Quotes

Quote from: Soren Kierkegaard
"I feel as if I were a piece in a game of chess, when my opponent says of it: That piece cannot be moved."

Yeah, extremely Lost-quotable!  I've looked for the context but haven't found it yet.

Quote from: Soren Kierkegaard
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."

Whoa!

Quote from: Soren Kierkegaard
"It is so hard to believe because it is so hard to obey."

Jack in a nutshell. Me too.

Quote from: Soren Kierkegaard
"Once you label me you negate me."

So THAT'S why we he cannot be named!  At this point I hope they do not give a name to SWM (Smokey/Whatever/MiB).

Friedrich Nietzsche Quotes

So Kierkegaard has some good ones, but so does Nietzsche. These are the kind of things I would like to hear MIB say during his recruitment of the candidates.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."

This works with the way Lost shows two sides to every story. Our experiences are subjective. As soon as you think you know what's going on they show you another perspective. I expect Lost's ending will be ripe for debate.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time."

A basic refutation of God. I'm not sure how much of this kind of talk ABC/Disney will allow. But I hope they let the Nietzsche out of the box. Let the MIB go for it.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."

I'm looking at you, Ben.

Could this be foreshadowing of a noble, heroes death for Sayid? Sawyer? Ben ???

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"The world itself is the will to power – and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power – and nothing else!."

We are the product of our choices. I also am reminded of Widmore's achievement as a powerful man in the real world after leaving the island.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

The abyss is a dark place. I don't think Claire was able to handle it.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"Is man one of God’s blunders? Or is God one of man’s blunders?"

Sounds like something MIB and Jacob might discuss over dinner on the beach. The kitchen is all out of everything but red herring, btw.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!"

Cue the action sequence! Even though Nietzsche said God is Dead he meant it as a call for mankind to transcend the need for God. Live dangerously (go for it) because death is your constant.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"Great intellects are skeptical."

Good line for MIB to use on Jack to appeal to his ego and his skepticism.

Quote from: Friedrich Nietzsche
"Without music, life would be an error."—


The context of this one is fascinating, Lost-wise.

Quote from: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=3631005
Nietzsche never fully removed himself from the world of music, but instead, became a composer of philosophy, utilizing the musical form as a template for his own writings and creative thought. For Nietzsche, music gave access to a realm of wisdom that transcended thought. Music was Nietzsche's great solace; in his last years, it was his refuge from madness.

Also, Amazon listing for Nietzche's music, track 4 is Phantasie
- Daniel Faraday, and David Shephard have played Chopin's Fantasie
- Faraday was suffering some kind of metal breakdown before he went to the island

Quote from: Wikipedia - God is Dead
Nietzsche believed there could be positive possibilities for humans without God. Relinquishing the belief in God opens the way for human creative abilities to fully develop. The Christian God, he wrote, would no longer stand in the way, so human beings might stop turning their eyes toward a supernatural realm and begin to acknowledge the value of this world.

Nietzsche uses the metaphor of an open sea, which can be both exhilarating and terrifying. The people who eventually learn to create their lives anew will represent a new stage in human existence, the Übermensch — i.e. the personal archetype who, through the conquest of their own nihilism, themselves become a sort of mythical hero. The 'death of God' is the motivation for Nietzsche's last (uncompleted) philosophical project, the 'revaluation of all values'.


605-4000-Lighthouse, Jack staring out to sea (large pic)


Übermensch translates to Superman.

but is he faster than Flash?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 12:56:30 AM by ericd543 »

Offline ericd543

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 03:26:38 AM »
Also want to say thanks to TPTB, for the reading list.

Teachers Touch Lives Forever

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 03:28:16 AM by ericd543 »

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: Are you buying what SWM is laying down?
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 12:11:17 AM »
Eric, you're kind of awesome. You know that? I'm not even sure how to respond in any kind of intellectual manner, expect by saying thanks for the research.  :)