Author Topic: infection = possession  (Read 15200 times)

Offline horseshoe_crab

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2010, 02:30:06 PM »
One thing that stood out to me about Dogen "testing" Sayid was the irony of torturing a torturer.  I'm assuming that Sayid, having been highly trained in the "persuasive arts" would also be highly trained in resisting these techniques as well.  I won't even begin to guess what Dogen expected/hoped/wanted to see, but let's assume (if it's an adversarial relationship) that Sayid's body knew how to react.

Incidentally, other than Jack, whose name is shouted out all the time, has Sayid used anyone else's name since his resurrection?  Is it possible that Dogen was testing for remembered skills, abilities, etc?  In other words, Sayid Jarrah was an accomplished torturer who wept like a baby during torture.  Maybe that's why Sayid failed...

Offline KoKoNut

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2010, 03:09:04 PM »
One thing that stood out to me about Dogen "testing" Sayid was the irony of torturing a torturer.  I'm assuming that Sayid, having been highly trained in the "persuasive arts" would also be highly trained in resisting these techniques as well.  I won't even begin to guess what Dogen expected/hoped/wanted to see, but let's assume (if it's an adversarial relationship) that Sayid's body knew how to react.

Incidentally, other than Jack, whose name is shouted out all the time, has Sayid used anyone else's name since his resurrection?  Is it possible that Dogen was testing for remembered skills, abilities, etc?  In other words, Sayid Jarrah was an accomplished torturer who wept like a baby during torture.  Maybe that's why Sayid failed...

I don't recall Sayid crying like a baby when Rousseau was torturing him in the earlier seasons.  He's different.  He's not Sayid.  I don't know what he is. But rest assured, he is NOT a zombie.

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2010, 03:59:23 PM »
There was something interesting noted, on a podcast I listened to, on the bus to work today. I think it was The Lost Mystery Podcast... They mentioned that Sayid had been wired-up to electrodes previously and zapped by none-other than Danielle Rousseau!

After zapping him (and having a similar reaction to when Dogen zapped him), Rousseau deduced that Sayid was safe. So, Sayid displays similar reactions to the same "diagnostic procedure" yet receives two differing diagnoses.

You know what I think "the infection" is?

Free will.

That line from Sayid bothered me... You know the line to Jack, when Sayid was being all doe-eyed and complicit about taking the pill? I think it was something like, "I'll do whatever you want, Jack, because I trust you". It was just so sappy and needn't have been verbalised in so many words. So why did the scriptwriters add the line?

Well, Dogen stated to Jack that Sayid hadn't yet fully succumbed to the infection. Maybe the next time Jack asks, Sayid is going to punch his lights out and tell him to get f***ed!!!

Who gave Sayid the gift of free will?... Not M.I.B. whom seems extremely cajoling (to put it mildly)... Not Jacob, whose magical springs were tainted and lifeless... Who else in the Lost universe has great magical God-like powers?

The Island.

Claire is now acting very much like Rousseau, and Dogen claims that Claire also has "the infection". So, we can deduce that Claire, Sayid and Rousseau have all (or will all) display similar symptoms.

Danielle was always perceived to be a threat to The Others, purely because she was deemed to be "crazy". Was she?... Of course not.

Now, maybe you have to die and be resurrected by The Island to be given this gift. Rousseau may have died at some point unseen; maybe even before giving birth to Alex. Ben's adopted darling daughter always did display a willful streak.

Speaking of children, teenagers naturally have a tendency to question the status quo, moreso than adults. The Others locked both Walt and Karl in Room 23, which always seemed unduly harsh.

The Others have always been anti-free will. They're nothing more than a cult.

There was more to this line of thought, but my mind was sidetracked by a phone call.

My thoughts had something to do with The Island allowing some people to die, whilst enabling others to re-live. It also had to do with Ben and Charles' "rules", which I now believe are nothing more than "only the players in the game can kill each other, because The Island will decide which of those killed will actually die"; so bringing outsiders to The Island (Keamy & co.) broke the rules because The Island didn't have control.

I'll try and remember how this tied into the "free will as infection" train of thought. Hmmm...

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2010, 04:55:22 PM »
I think they suspect it's smokey. 

But it might be Jacob.  Since Jacob did say that Sayid must survive. 

Did Jacob tell us that or was MIB using Jacob's dead body since we know he can do that.

Offline Adriana

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2010, 06:26:25 PM »
I'm loving all these theories and I'm churning them around in my head. But what hasn't been mentioned so far in terms of who can/cannot be 'infected' or used by MIB/Jacob, is Walt - he wasn't dead and yet he 'appeared' to various Losties, and when he did, there was lots of whispering etc. and he generally delivered what seemed to be relevant messages (sometimes not though!). This totally throws me as we know that he is alive and well in the 'real world' getting on with his life - my head hurts!!! ::) ??? ::) ??? :-\

ARGGHHH ... I don't think they will EVER explain that!!! (Walt's appearances).

To be honest, I was kind of disappointed in the episode.  I felt the cat-and-mouse between Dogen and Jack was unnecessary and forced the writers, too many questions posed and no answers, the scenes with Kate in Alt. 2007 were unnecessary (maybe). GAH.

However -- did anyone else notice a change in Sayid's demeanor?  I thought his vocal inflections sounded a lot more like a victim and meek and confused than Sayid normally sounds.  He's usually assertive and decisive even in situations where he has no idea what the hell is going on or where he's being attacked.  His voice sounds a little higher and more whiny than usual to me, and his accent sounds off (I know his Iraqi accent is fake anyway, due to Naveen Andrews being British, and can kind of go in and out just based on that ... but it sounds even worse now).

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2010, 07:10:15 PM »
I was searching Lostpedia for something else entirely and came across this...

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Exodus,_Part_1

As they head deeper into the jungle, Rousseau sees a vine with what looks like blue powder on it and declares they have entered the Dark Territory. Rousseau says that it is here that her team got infected and Montand lost his arm.

I wonder if it's related to the ash (which I thought might be from the volcano or cremated bodies).

Offline Adriana

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2010, 07:27:47 PM »
Okay, for everyone who thinks the the Infection is SEPARATE from MIB/Smokey, count me in.  I just convinced myself of this via another forum thread (http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10250.0.html), which I think speaks to the topic on this thread fittingly:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this actually gets to the point that there's contention about.  Are Smokey and "the infection" one and the same?

If they ARE one and the same, then Smokey is currently in Locke's body at the beach, AND now in Sayid's body at the temple, AND in Claire's body running around the forest ... and that would suggest he can be in multiple vessels at once.

HOWEVER -- when he appeared to Ben as Alex under the temple wall, UNLocke *disappeared* while Alex was in front of Ben.  Similarly, UNLocke disappeared while Smokey killed Jacob's SWAT team in the foot statue.  This would suggest that he CANNOT inhabit multiple vessels at once.

..... I think I've just convinced myself that Smokey and the Infection are actually 2 separate things, now ... bringing our total of "other-worldly entities of ambiguous moral standing" to 3:

1: MIB/Smokey
2: Infection
3: Jacob

Yay, LSAT logic!!!

By this theory ... it's possible that the Infection is a tool used by MIB/Smokey (kind of like a magic spell), but not MIB/Smokey inhabiting bodies himself.

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2010, 07:45:33 PM »
By this theory ... it's possible that the Infection is a tool used by MIB/Smokey (kind of like a magic spell), but not MIB/Smokey inhabiting bodies himself.

I think that Rousseau's team were "Smokeyfied"...

I don't think that Rousseau or Sayid or Claire are (or were) infected with anything other than the desire to not swallow The Others' brainwashing!

And I still think that Deliverance-Claire is not the same person (or thing) as Cabin-Bonged-Claire.

Offline KoKoNut

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2010, 08:54:19 PM »


Quote
And I still think that Deliverance-Claire is not the same person (or thing) as Cabin-Bonged-Claire.

Deliverance-Claire! Oh Mango!  That's priceless!  :D

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2010, 09:04:53 PM »


Quote
And I still think that Deliverance-Claire is not the same person (or thing) as Cabin-Bonged-Claire.

Deliverance-Claire! Oh Mango!  That's priceless!  :D

Sometimes you just have to cut to the chase!  :D

Offline Creflo

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2010, 10:21:29 PM »
The episode was half-over when I started this topic.  I was frustrated by two uses of the old "there's no direct translation of this Japanese word, but the closest is..." infected in the first instance and claimed the second.  I think we'll find a better term.  He was awfully Christ-like as he was carried out of the tea, prior to a resurrection of sorts.

I think about the Spanish commercial released before this season that put everything into a chess context.  Presumably, all of the characters are the pieces and Jacob plays the white.  Some pieces are coerced into movements by deception and clever play.  Some are captured.

The evidence seems to be that MIB/smokey clones the dead.  These would include Locke, Christian, and Yemi...and possibly other instances of apparitions from the consciousnesses of Islanders.  Like Dave.

Quote
In the Official Lost Podcast/May 26, 2006, the producers said, "There's a good chance that you guys saw the Monster this year Season 2, but just didn't realize you were looking at the Monster." Gregg Nations later stated that the appearance of the Monster was after the episode "The 23rd Psalm" and likely in the second half of the season. It is possible that the Monster assumed the guise of "Dave" in the episode of that name in season two. If it could get Hurley to kill himself, it has eliminated a pivotal character able to speak to the dead. Making it his choice rather than a direct attack may relate to rules around 'choice'. Remember, Jacob told Hurley it was his choice to return to the island.

MIB plays the game by manipulating others using pieces he has already claimed, and his goal in winning the game is to get home.  Maybe pack up the spaceship (Island) and leave this planet of unworthy beings.  Jacob's goal is to redeem humanity.

I don't think that the dark souls like Sayid and Claire are possessed in the sense that Linda Blair portrayed.  They may be "possessed" in the way one possesses the captured pieces of an opponent in chess.

In the case of Sayid, I think the more appropriate word might be damned.

Offline laklost

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2010, 11:05:29 PM »
I agree with everything you just said.  MIB uses, Jacobs guides.  Your definition of possessed is spot on.  And Sayid saw what was coming to him.  If he can be saved, then so might Locke-corpse - and all of them.

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2010, 01:50:17 AM »
I agree with everything you just said.  MIB uses, Jacobs guides.  Your definition of possessed is spot on.  And Sayid saw what was coming to him.  If he can be saved, then so might Locke-corpse - and all of them.

Oh yeah! I love it! I'm a big fan of Creflo's theory too. Except, I'm not sure Locke can be saved anymore. The real Locke is pretty dead I think.

Also, "Deliverance-Claire" is easily the funniest thing I've heard since "We'll be at the food court."

Offline laklost

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2010, 10:50:23 AM »
I think the fact that the real Locke is completely dead (murdered by Ben like the real Jacob was murdered by Ben) hints more at what the positive energy of the island can accomplish.  I am looking for the Rise of the Real Locke to counteract the Rise of the Fake Locke.  Wait for the island.  Wait for it.  It will rise too.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 10:54:49 AM by Laklost »

Offline jamesl

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Re: infection = possession
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2010, 01:12:13 PM »
..  In other words, Sayid Jarrah was an accomplished torturer who wept like a baby during torture. 

I think that's due to the resurrection.
He just came back from the dead. His body and mind were still very weak.