Just started watching season 1 over, and noticed that Lockes description of backgammon with its light and dark pieces and the light and dark stones that Jack finds with "adam and eve" seem to maybe connect? Just a thought that maybe this was all planned out, and im just waiting for one of the characters to find the black and white stones, im still betting on adam and eve to be jack and kate.

I don't see the Rival as Esau at all. While Esau threatens Jacob in the Bible, and Jacob fears for his life, when he is finally reunited with Esau they are reconciled. Esau is a man of passion--sells his birthright because he is hungry. When he meets Jacob years later he has had time to cool down. The rival in Lost is cold and calculating--he hates Jacob with a perfect hatred.

I see Jacob and the Rival as a picture of Jesus and Satan. Satan is an "accuser" as in the case of Job where he tells God that Job only loves him because of his prosperity. Jacob's quiet confidence that man (and good) will prevail is more godlike. Jesus knew that his death would lead to the ultimate destruction of Satan, even though the devil "badly wanted to kill" him.

Also, a minor point: In the beginning of this scene Jacob offers the rival a fish to eat--Jesus prepared fish for the disciples when he was resurrected at the end of the Book of John.

I may have missed someone saying this, but if you look back to when Ben and Locke first went to what they thought was Jacob's cabin, the voice asked Locke to help. Jacob would never have been in need of help, but the man dress in black definitely would. I think this might prove that he was the one trapped there all along. and inevitably Locke does help.... by dying.

FYI - A hydrogen bomb is a fusion device. An atomic bomb is a fission device. Fusion is the process of fusing hydrogen into helium into smaller elements. Now here's the kicker - a fusion reaction takes the power of an ATOMIC bomb to set off the chain reaction. Most likely, Faraday's instructions were to remove the fission device acting as the trigger for the fusion reaction. That's probably why the device was so much smaller than the bomb casing. Also, the materials used to make are relatively safe. They could be handled with minimal protection.

Maybe there is some kind of rule that says you can't kill the leader or anyone who's ever been one. Even though they despise each other. Maybe Jacob and his rival are in the same situation.

I'm thinking that next season will show that *Esau* has met the oceanic 6 at some point in their lives too.

Would love to hear anyone's opinion on this....

What is the link between Jacob and the bad guy and Ben and Charles? Both say they can't kill each other.

Thoughts?

And what did Faraday whisper in little Charlotte's ear this time before getting shot? I only saw it once, but thought he said something like maybe we can change it, it's worth a try.

Wonder where Claire is now?

Whoever is inhabiting Unlocke, used Christian's dead body as a "Shell" to approach Locke in an unthreatening way to tell him what to do after fell. He also couldn't touch the wheel himself, and in Unlocke couldn't kill Jacob.

Christian is also the grandfather of Aaron. Maybe that will be the key.

Just my thoughts here...

Black-dressed-guy (also seen in prison break, life, etc, etc.) wants to kill Jacob one way or another, but finding a "loop-hole" this means breaking a cycle. He is trapped by Jacob in the cabin where the black ash is the "wall" for the prison. Smokey it the only one who can do the errands for him, turning into different forms (Christian, horse, yemi, you name it) until he manages to get loose by breaking the ash path.

Once this happens, he sets things in motion in order to kill Jacob. Convincing Richard to tell Locke that he has to die, then bringing Locke to the wheel in order to bring ben back to use as his instrument to kill Jacob. Of course killing locke first happens to be very convenient in order for him to replace him in the island (remember what Ben said? dead is dead, you don't come back from that).

So that was that man's plan.

As for Jacob, he had to thwart his killer's plan right? so he managed to get all the people on the plane. He sent one group to the present and one to the past. The present group takes Locke's dead body in order to show irrefutably that Unlocke is a fake. This team first went to the cabin to make sure whether blackie was still imprisoned or not, and they brought lapidus as a "candidate" to replace the open leader position (Locke being dead an all). This unites pretty much everybody in the present against unlocke.

The past team was the hidden ace Jacob had. Being there allowed them to avoid blackie all along. They had to be there at the time of the incident to be transported back to the future. So nothing really changes, they just get back to present time with all the consequences of their actions with them in order to join the present team. But their most important task was to set Ben in motion since he was a little kid joining the hostiles in order to make him a leader, then a dissapointed ex-leader, and then the Jacob-killing instrument.

So Jacob planned his own death all this time to keep the loop going... There's no better way to beat your opponent than creating the same outcome he would've expected, but under your own terms.

ps. btw, Sun was as important in this season as Libby
ps2. Can somebody tell me why was Christian so important and pivotal to every one of the losties?

Nuclear Bomb means Nucleus Bomb. All Nuclear Bombs spilt an atom or nucleus. A hydrogen bomb splits a hydrogen nucleus to create energy. An atomic bomb splits an atom to create energy.
Splitting of atoms creates radioactive fallout.

Ben stabs like a wimp.

Rob's Lost...Okay...I wasn't sure...but even if it's nuclear there's still the question for me of whether or not it's more radioactive than a "conventional" nuclear bomb or not...and we still have the fact that it was exploded underground next to what is claimed to a be extremely powerful pocket of electro magnetic energy...stands to reason to me that this would have some effect in pulling the blast's impact towards it rather than away...

And here's another thought I had...if no hatch what happens to Desmond...Penny...and little Charlie...how does something that's already happened and exists in the present just become undone?

Couple of points:

Did anyone else notice that Jacob said "Whatever happens, happens" rather than Daniel's "Whatever happened, happened"?

Perhaps the "Jacob" we see in flashback was actually trying to change future events based on the comment above? For lack of a better way to describe, this person was also acting a little like the Devil: using no specific instructions, he nudges you the direction he wants to a point where it seems like YOUR idea.

The "Jacob" at the end definitely had an agenda: he provoked and encouraged Ben's action. He knew why they were there, he knew what Ben/John's intentions were, this was all part of a plan. Is Richard involved? He is Jacob's advisor. Per his own admission he hasn't aged because Jacob helps him. He's also the only person that knew the answer to Ilana's riddle. Will they be working together?

Bram's comment about "we're the good guys" seems strangely similar to Ben's comment in the Hatch that he was "one of the good ones!" just before he was to be shot.

Passenger-WHY- I agree on the theory that the being locked in the cabin was not Jacob, but was the rival. That's why there was a kinfe to the picture of the statue. Rival manipulated Locke to helping set him free, I think we're going to see Locke breaking the ash in the next season.

anyone think this conversation had to do with the time traveling debate? that Jacob was saying we have free will and can change things and the guy in black was saying that it will always end the same. This also comes into play at the end when Jacob says to Ben that he has a choice.

Passenger-WHY, Hydrogen Bombs are a type of Thermonuclear Bomb, meaning it is just a different form of Nuclear Bombs and thus produces radiation.

As to the the bomb...there was a reason why tests were done underground...to keep the impact there those above ground were usually safe...and how far down did the bomb drop ten feet...a hundred feet...two hundred feet...the deeper it was the less the impact to those above...plus we are talking about a hydrogen bomb...not a nuclear bomb...unless there is nuclear fallout from a hydrogen bomb which doesn't make much sense since that would make it nuclear bomb not a hydrogen bomb and just what exactly would hydrogen fallout do to some one?

The guy from the beginging is Esau? ...Really Daily Kush...then why didn't the writers (PTB) not just have Jacob say that name if it's so obvious...why avoid naming him if they wanted it that way?

Got no idea why they settled on Jacob but even with my limited biblical knowledge...the brothers if these two are indeed brothers where one wanted to kill the other was Cain (the bad one) and Abel (the good one)...

And really what did the biblical story of Jacob/Esau have to do with all the other biblical allusions/connections made by the writers...particularily the references some more obvous than others it seems to some of the Ten Commandments:

Thou shall not steal...little Kate
Thou shalt not kill...little sawyer
Thou shalt not lie/bear false witness...Sayid the torturer (?)
Thou shalt not commit adultery...Jin and Sun
Thou shalt not covet...Jack and his father (?)
Honor thy Father and Mother...Little Juliette

The last three Hurley Locke and Alana are tougher to decipher given what other commandments are left...No other god before me (Alana?) and Worshipping False Idols (The Island...Locke?)

i also remember the smoke making noises simaler to a crocodial

The guy from the beginning is Esau, Jacob's brother. They fought for survival in they're mother's wound and would continue to fight throughout their lives according to the bible. That's who the rival is, ya dig?

scott Has a good point even the episode where echo dies there are parts where the smoke monster appears and the disapears when lock appears. I even think echo notices a connection. This all could have started when john first saw the smoke monster way back in season 1.

was smoky also the polar bear in the first season that Sawyer shot. Was it a test from smoky to see if there was anyone in the group he could use to kill jacob

Here's a thought...what if the "person" who Ben took locke to see at the cabin the first time wasn't Jacob but his rival and it was he who was looking to Locke to help him escape this ash prison so he could continue in his quest to find that loophole and kill Jacob...after all Ben said it was all a lie his connection to Jacob...so would he have really known the reason for the ash or would he just chalked it up to superstition...

SawyerLove had pointed out that in the opening conversation Jacob and the man in black had talked about man and man and black said man always mess it up and it ends the same. Jacob says something like well its all progress and "what happens, happens". I think you're onto something with this always happening as a test of the worthiness of man and must be to this point, man in black has always found his loop hole and manipulated man to being unworthy of Jacob's adoration. Kind of a game they play over and over.

This time though it seems Jacob could have manipulated man do good and possibly win this game. While the Man in Black is busy manipulating the Losties via Smokie to set up Locke eventually dieing so he could have Ben kill Jacob, Jacob has been manipulating Jack, Eloise Hawking, Kate, Sawyer etc. to set off the bomb to reverse it all.

That's why Man in Black is so concerned when Jacob say's "They're coming"- he realizes he wasn't paying attention to the Losties in Dharmaville and now they are about to return to present time and ruin his plans.

And I just found a similar connection to the Egyptian mythology;

Jacobs rival could in fact be Set and if so, Jacob would most likely be Osiris (apperently, Sobek have have been known as Osiris, and Sobek is also a likely candidate for the statue).
Anyway, Set is Osiris brother, and here comes the interesting part:

"In the Legend of Osiris, Set kills Osiris and scatters his body, then claims the throne of the gods for his own. He is later struck down by Horus, the son of Osiris, who restores order to the world."

Could then Horus, in some way, be parallel with Ben (as the Jacob/Esau/Ben-theory?), so maybe he's got a greater role to play in the events to come in Lost? Just a thought.

A interesting connection between the bible and Lost:

Jacob had a son, named BENJAMIN, and the most interesting part: His wife, Rachel, died as she gave birth to him (as Bens mom did, in the show.)
Thought it was worth mentioning.
Maybe this could have something to to with the "statue", that resembles very much with a "Tawaret" (some sort of god in the Egyptian mythology that stands for PREGNACY and life.

Now, I don't know if Ben would be Jacobs son - that wouldn't make any sense; would it?

And when Jacob states "They're coming", I believe he means that Jack, Sawyer and the others are returning to thier correct time-line, somehow. Maybe the "explosion" we witnessed in the end of the last episode, in fact was just another "jump-in-time-flash"; and not an explosion at all?

I am I the only one that thinks Jacob's "Rival" is smoky? he clearly is a shape-shifter which is proven at the end when it is reaviled he has taken Locke's form, at that time he says something along the lines of "do you know all i had to do to get here?" the only thing that's been running around the island manipulating every one other then the others and Jacob is smoky, he was all so the one that got Ben to swear loyalty to the false Locke, so I believe that this man and smoky are the same entity. which would mean he has been around since episode 1, if you think back after seeing this finally you will realise smoky has actually been doing things to hinder Jacob, killing Mr. Echo who was a spiritual leader, pretending to be Jacob in the shack to get Ben jealous enough to kill Locke who was clearly who Jacob wanted to be the next leader since he saved him after he fell from the window, he turned Clair to his side so Aaron would leave the island which apparently was not supposed to happen. does anyone disagree? I would love another opinion

Jacob also met with Jin and Sun at their wedding. And his Korean was flawless...

What if the bomb going off set off another time jump for the Losties? So while Richard may have seen them in the explosion and figured they were blown to bits they really just disappeared as they jumped through time.

Were the only people that Jacob visited in the past Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Locke, Hurley, & Sayid? He didn't visit Juliet? It seems she was pivotal in actually making the bomb explode.

Secondly:
The magnetic fields happened as predicted by Faraday, causing the metallic meltdown. Causing Chang to lose his hand. But if the bomb exploded AFTER all that, wouldn't they have ALL been killed? Not left to make videos?

Richard said he watched them all die. Let's say they died due to the metallic meltdown. Richard could've survived that. BUT, Wouldn't Richard have died too if there were an H-bomb explosion?

He didn't tell Locke he had to be alive.
If Locke had not been in the box (on the island), then Richard's gang would have fought the newcomers. Instead, they seemed to unite.

What about Whitmore telling Locke that there is a war coming and if he (Locke) isn't on the island then the wrong side was going to win? Anyone want to take a stab at that?

I agree with Scott on this one,
also just to add something else in the mix since his return from the dead you haven't seen Locke and Christian together either. possibly for the same reason they're on and the same now.

As far as "what happened happens," In the discussion between Jacob and black shirt on the beach, it seemed to indicate that they've done this over and over again and each time, it ends the same, but maybe the choices throughout have changed slightly. Jacob calls it progress. It gives the idea that maybe this time, the outcome COULD be different.

A person pointed this one out to me today:

He said that in his Catholic upbringing there was old legend of Jacobs and Jeremiah, 2 angels who were in charge of guarding the sacred land one wanted to share this land with the mortals the other disagreed because he found mortals to be unworthy of it.

He didn't remember the rest of it and I don't know of it. But I guess I've got something to look up now.

:)

They are gods talking about people. The Black dude doesn't believe in them while Jacob does. That much is obvious. The Black Dude could be Anubis, since he judges people with the help of the Smoke Monster (Thoth?). And Jacob could be Taweret or that other god. So they played dice with the fates of all these people.

I think that the person wearing black is Richard

OMG I didn't see any of that coming, well except maybe Dr Chang's arm getting squished! Great points Scott & Hord. So next season's big question has to be who is Unlocke, makes a change from who is Jacob I suppose! I like the name Unlocke Scott, I was so worried someone was going to call him Focke, which would have been awful LOL!!

Great religious tie ins Hord & dharma_waffle that Secret Wars comparison is so interesting! I spent the first 2 seasons arguing that the Flight 815 crash did happen and it wasn't all just a game and they were placed there, well I might have to adjust that somewhat. I still have to cling onto "What Happened Happened" though! Like v6horse says changs arms is squashed, looks like Radzinsky got away, so is the big bang the Incident that always happened?

Another thought about Smokey and Unlocke and Locke.

Locke always seemed to not be hurt by smokey (unlike Eko) You wonder if Eko was a possible canidate in the early stages.

There was one point where smokey tried to pull locke down the whole... but the rest of the saved him.

I think this is what confirmed to Unlocke that this was the right choice to mimic. Thus knowing to get rid of Eko.

Locke and eko were both man of faith.

It appears that everything is still continuing the course of whatever happened, happended, because chang's hand gets smashed during the incident leading to his future prosthetic arm.

Did anyone else notice that Jacob made sure to touch all of the characters that he visited before they came to the island in some small way?

I agree that many of the apparitions we have seen are manifestations of "unlocke". He tells Jacob that Jacob has no idea what he has gone through to get to where he is, in other words finding the loophole. For instance, when Ben in going to be judged, I think it is unlocke that appears as Alex telling Ben that he has to do whatever Locke says, thus leading Ben to be told to kill Jacob. And did he also appear as Christian telling Locke to move the island, because moving the island results in Locke leaving the island and eventually dying so unlocke can take his place. This episode changes the whole way we have to look at previous episodes and seasons. It's almost as if everything that has happened was put into place for unlocke to impersonate Locke so he could kill Jacob.

I really like that theory scott, I think you may be on to something. And I like the term Unlocke as well, that could definitely catch on xD

Ooh, Scott! Good point! I didn't notice "UnLocke" conveniently "disappearing" when Ben is with Smokey, or calling him, or whatever.
I assumed that UnLocke was Smokey somehow, but you're recollection of what happened is making it seem more definite!

Scott, I think you have a very good point. We have never seen UnLocke and Smokey together. As a matter of fact, pains seems to have been taken to make sure that we noticed that they were always apart!

OK, i haven't posted here before, but here's my take on this.

Man #2 is the Smoke Monster. (I assume the body in the opening scene is just another host body for him.) Here's the evidence I'm citing:

1) When fake Locke (Unlocke if you will) joins Ben's quest to "be judged," he takes him to Dharmaville to summon the Smoke Monster. After Ben does his drain hole thing, he comes outside and finds only Sun. Unlocke is gone. He tells Sun she should go inside because he can't control what's about to come. (something to that effect.) Then, rather than the Smoke Monster, we get Unlocke popping out of the trees. Seems like one of those hints you figure out the second time you watch the whole thing.

Fast forward to the temple. Ben falls thru the floor and Unlocke runs off to find a vine. Smokey doesn't show up until after Unlocke is gone, and Unlocke doesn't return until Smokey is gone. I also thought it was odd at the time that Unlocke didn't press Ben for info on what happened.

What do you experts think?

Hord, I love that theory! More comments please people, can we discuss that??

When Jacob says they are coming I was confused about who he meant. Richard and Illiana? Are they coming inside the statue? Doesn't seem quite right with them so close. It did seem Jacob knew what was going to happen, when he said what about you, a rhetorical question, Jacob knew Ben's whole life has been spent on selfish pursuits. Nothing he could say at that point would stop Ben from stabing jacob. But Man #2 was pissed after Jacob said they are coming so it seems it has to be Jack and crew. They will be the ultimate saviors.

I think we need to focus on talk they had in the begin of the show. Alot of it was very specific on things.

Almost to the point where it could have double meanings...

Like at the end. Jacob seems (IMHO) know ben is going to stab him. To the point where he says "What about you" almost knowing that it's going to push him over. Before that he tells Standing-Locke that "I see you found your loophole" again foreshadowing that he is about to get it.

The one line at the end that bothers me right before they cut to Juliette. Jacob says while on the ground that "They are coming". I don't think he means the people outside (i.e. Richard and the others) But more or less Jack and them trapped in the 70's.

I think he got them all in place to help him at this moment. And he has to let events fall out as they will. I.E. getting stabbed.

I'm sorry the good guys win in the "Secret Wars"

Honestly guys, when I first saw this piece it reminded me first of the "Secret Wars" (Marvel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Wars

Where a higher being plays with the lives of super heroes and villains just to see who would win, the good guys or bad guys. The thing about the secret wars is that once the bad guys win, the being places them all back on earth, brings everyone who dies (captain america, human torch etc) back to life and makes it so like it never happend. Maybe after the rivalry is over, they will place everyone back in time like nothing ever happend.

It also reminds me of the book of Job, cause that's when the Devil is telling God that all men are bad. And God is like, you're wrong look at Job. and so the Devil is allowed to do all sorts of things to try to prove God wrong. Thing about this tory is that all the people that died, died. They don't come back, like in the Secret Wars.

Funny that y'all mention Jacob and Esau. I went back and read it today and noticed that Jacob didn't take the birth right. Esau sold it to Jacob for food so that he wouldn't die. Even still Esau was going to get the blessing he had sold to Jacob, but Jacob got what was sold to him before Esau could get it.

On this parallel. Maybe that's why the rival hates this Jacob. Jacob means "Usurper" and maybe the rival had to give something up (like the island) in order to live. Maybe the Rival is the Egyptian portrayed on the walls that the smoke monster serves. Remember the smoke monster/Alex tells Ben that he must do everything Locke tells him to do. I bet the Smoke Monster knows that that wasn't really Locke. He/Alex must have known.

On the other hand like willomom3 and sledgeweb said. Perhaps the rival is the smoke moster. And locke is his shell. If you read Gen 27, when Jacob recieves his blessing "he is told that he will become the master of his brother", When Esau is blessed "he is told that he will serve his brother, but when he becomes restless he will throw his brother's yoke off" (basically he will revolt against Jacob and no longer be Jacob's servant)

I think I'm gonna end up writing my Thesis on Lost. :)

Willomom, I think we have to at least consider the possibilty now that all the apparitions we have seen ... Ana lucia, yemi, walt, alex, Christian, horace, etc may be a manifestation of Jacob's counterpart. Not forcertain, but a possibility, and calls into question smokey's role in all this - including whether or not smokey and this man in black are the same entity. Maybe the man we saw in black is just another shell, same as Locke, Christian, et al

First time posting and just thinking...

When 815 crashed and we saw Christian...could this be Jacob's "friend" making his first attempt to get to Jacob?

In the Bible Jacob took everything from Esau (blessing and birthright). Could Jacob's friend have a real reason for hating him so much?

Ben's comment at the end of the episode seems interesting when he refers to "Locke" asking if he is Moses. Clearly the living "Locke" we now know is some for of Jacob's fellow island resident. Could this be another religious implication to go along with all the Egyptian stuff. Moses did free the Jewish slaves of Egypt from their rulers. Would this make Jacob a Jesus like figure?

yes definately we find more mythology emerging... i like how its starting to end...

Interesting about Jacob and Esau. After watching the whole episode, I went back and rewatched this opening scene, and I had the distinct impression that we were watching the Prologue to Faust, where the Devil comes to visit God, and subtle arguments commence about the futility of mankind. Very, very interesting.