What's Hot: 5x05: "This Place is Death" Recap
What's Hot: 5x05: "This Place is Death" Recap
If you haven't already read AstroJones' article titled "A Response to Jugdish: Time is a Two-by-Four...", I suggest you do....it talks about the two major types of Time Travel depicted in Sci-Fi shows & movies. Also if you ever plan to build a time machine and go back in time to kill Hitler, his article will prepare you for some of the possible problems you may face.
I really enjoyed his article, and wrote a lengthy response about my in-depth thoughts about Time Travel which I've had over the years. Surprisingly it fits in well with what's been happening on Lost. Even more surprising, some people not only understood my ramblings, but enjoyed it. So here I attempt to touch up my initial ramblings on AstroJones' article for the front page.
Two Ways that Time Travel Works (As depicted in shows & movies):
- Fate: Everything has already been predetermined, it has happened that way, it will happen that way.....it will always happen that way. If you go back in time to try and change events of the past, you will find out that you were always meant to do that. All your so called "changes" actually leads to history unfolding the exact same way. This is referred to as Fate or no free-will....meaning even if you think you have a choice, you don't as you always make the same choice....you just don't realize it. If it will help you understand this concept better, think of the first Terminator movie.
Note: Characters in Lost seems to refer to this as "The Rules"....presumably the Rules of Time Travel....you can't change what's already happen in the past (or avoid what you've seen happen in the future).
- No Fate: The opposite of the above. When you Time Travel to the past, everything you do will change the future that you come from. When you go back to your own time, history would have unfolded completely different than what you knew. This is referred to as No Fate or free-will....the ability to change history. Think of the Back to the Future movies.
I personally believe in the Fate scenario, all choices I'm going to make has already been predetermined.....I will always make the same choice if all conditions remains the same. If I was to Time Travel to the past, I was meant to....everything I have done in the past is already accounted for. History would unfolded exactly as it did before I time traveled to the past.
So after years of believing this Fate scenario, it occurred to me....why does it have to be one way or the other....Fate or No Fate? Why can't both exist? Why can't some forms of Time Travel yield Fate (where everything has already happened and can't be changed) and some other forms of Time Travel yield No Fate (being able to actually change the future)?
So apply this to Lost:
What if the Island "Skipping" form of Time Travel yields the Fate scenario....everything has already happened, you can't change it because whatever you do you were always meant to do it.
And what if Daniel Faraday's "Brain" Time Travel machine yields a No Fate scenario....you can change the future.
That would explain a few things....Desmond is "Special" because he can in fact change the future as his method of Time Travel (Faraday's Machine) is different than the Island's method of Time Travel. So Charles Whidmore is mad that he got kicked off his island, he can't change how things happened with the Island's method of Time Travel....so he funds Daniel Faraday to build a time machine where he can change things and in effect "Change the Rules". Perhaps Whidmore and Ben both got to see the future with the Island's form of Time Travel....they saw that Alex was still alive. Ben thinks the "Rules" say that Alex is still alive in the future....so Ben tells Keamy (Crazy Freighter Merc with Armband Detonator) to go ahead and shoot Alex, thinking no matter what it can't happen because Alex is alive in the future. But....Aha! Whidmore had used Faraday's Time Travel method to change things instead of the Island's method....therefore events could be changed...and Alex dies. Ben figures out that Whidmore "Changed the Rules".
Somebody else mentioned why doesn't Desmond remember what Faraday told him at the Hatch until so many years later? And if Desmond meet Faraday in the past back at the university and interacted with Penny in the past....why does he still do the things that make him end up on the island? My answer to that is the "Brian" Time Travel method is not that refined....Desmond seems to get confused, mixed up, and forgets things. I guess you can say his memory gets scrambled up with what he should know and shouldn't know at any particular point in time. Adding to the confusion is, if Desmond can change time then he's probably getting confused with alternate time lines of stuff that once happened one way but now didn't happen like that. So with so much memory scrambling going on in Desmond's mind with his form of "Brain" Time Travel....it's not hard for me to believe he just couldn't remember the discussion with Faraday at the hatch until now.
I'm going to leave you with one last brain teaser if you somehow managed to follow along with the above and not get confuse so far. It's something new I just thought up of now, and those who enjoyed my first ramblings on AstroJones' article might like this as well.
As we've been seeing in the latest episodes of Lost, Daniel Faraday is Time Traveling with the Island's "Skipping" method. We even see him in the past during the construction of the Orchid with Marvin Candle. If we're to assume the Island's "Skipping" method is the Fate scenario, whatever Daniel does he cannot change anything. Therefore, alas he cannot save poor Charlotte from her death. Pity, as I agree with Miles....she's hot.
However, what if Daniel used his own "Brain" Time Travel machine on himself at some point in time?! Are we to believe he built this Time Machine and never used it on himself? His journal does say that Desmond is his Constant, which would suggest Daniel did in fact use his machine on himself. Also Daniel seems to be confused at times....just like Desmond when he was "Brain" time traveling. So if Daniel did use his machine on himself, and if this form of "Brian" Time Travel allows a No Fate scenario, then he can in effect change events and possible save Charlotte from her doom. How cool and complex would that be? Daniel's Time Traveling the Fate scenario by the Island's "Skipping" method and he's Time Traveling the No Fate scenario with his "Brain" Time Travel method, both at the same time. That would be epic! He's Time Traveling on two levels....Time Travel Squared!
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: Fate or No Fate? Why Not Both? By Blitz Wing.
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Wow! I think this is the closest explanation of what's going on here.
When you mentioned Desmond's memory confusion, I remembered that Daniel and Charlotte were doing some memory work with playing cards.
Could this be Daniel's way of trying to keep his sanity through the 'brain time travel'?
That, and having a 'constant'.
Good article, thanks for posting it!
Time travel and changing the past are great concepts that have been brouched in other shows, in various ways.
1. The Time Tunnel - a classic 60's show where US scientists were creating a new military weapon to be able to combat their enemies by being able to change their past. Two scientists "testing" it for a general got stuck in the past, and are thrown from one situation in the past or future to the next. The lab techs can watch them, send materials to them to assist them, but can't figure out how to bring them back to the lab. Whenever they are in danger, the techs just wisk them to the next episode's time and place and it starts over again. They clearly can affect the future course of things, but have to use judgement on whether to make changes or not, as any "course correction" will have future ramifications.
2. Quantum Leap - classic 90's with similar theme. A scientist leaping from time period to time period, able to affect outcomes, not able to get "back home." While the Time Tunnel guys didn't have two-way communication with the lab, they quickly understood if they asked for something they got it. But no ability to bounce ideas with them. Leap had Al, a hologram of his military boss and Ziggy the computer to computate probabilities and outcomes to him and bouce ideas around.
3. Star Trek - many episodes over the various show dealing with time travel and the temporal police. Perhaps my favorite is a Voyager epi where an alien scientist keeps sending a temporal wave over the solar system they are in in order to attempt to recover a time where his race is the dominant force and his wife is still alive. But each successive wave creates slight changes that snowball into major changes in time.
In short, changing the past cannot control the future outcome. Change can be predicted, but will it be change for the better? Not always.
My apologies. It did NOT format well (no tabs!?!). There were actually two columns of data. Do not get a brain cramp trying to read that- I promise to never do that again.
Sigh.
This is a completely simplistic version of the way my brain is working this out. I hope it doesn't get all wack in the translation:
ISLANDERS OCEANIC 6
..................................................................................................................................................
island begins skipping thru time helicopter crashes in ocean
..................................................................................................................................................
islanders wander island skipping survivors float in raft
thru time
..................................................................................................................................................
Daniel speaks to Historic Desmond survivors picked up by Penny
..................................................................................................................................................
Locke turns wheel and goes "poof" survivors float to safety with new story
.................................................................................................................................................. 3 years pass for Oceanic 6
........................................
Desmond wakes up with "memory"
........................................
survivors plot to return
..................................................................................................................................................
fans await 5x06 fans await 5x06
Ouch! I hope this looks better when posted.....
I like the whole idea of the "changing of the rules" as far as Alex's death. Thinking back to that episode (I actually re-watched it recently), the look on Ben's face and his tone of voice make that theory very plausible. And it just makes sense to me.
Well, think about this, Daniel told Desmond to go to Oxford 3 years previous for the ISLAND. But Daniel and Desmond are both FROM same time, so even though Daniel told PAST Desmond, current Desmond was JUST TOLD... Am I making sense? Maybe not.
I have to agree with @mapliopl in that Desmond should have awoken with that thought about Daniel fairly quickly (if only days go by on the island, he should have "remembered" it perhaps as early as being rescued on Penny's boat or when they were adrift on the raft.) Even though the islanders are skipping through time, it appeared their "linear" time was only days or less.
I have found this most puzzling. I keep reminding myself- don't over-think this, just go along for the great ride that it is.
Good Article. The double time travel seems a bit weird to me, but it works.
Oh you're going to love this. This article specifically talks about why you can't travel through time to kill Hitler, but I think some of it will help to confuse everyone on here about time travel in general...even more.
http://io9.com/5094494/why-you-cant-travel-back-in-time-and-kill-hitler
Blitz Wing, I enjoyed your article. It was well thought out and written. However, this is the trouble I have with time-travel stories of any type and why I screamed when it became evident in Lost; characters become trapped in a "loop" in time-travel stories. What I mean is, when a certain point in time comes, that person is going to travel back in time to do it all over again, indefinately. It doesn't matter if events can be changed or not, they are always going to come to a place where they go backward and start over.
This type of story-line allows for all types of nonsense to be written in to try and explain things. Right now, with all the "flashes", is an attempt by the writers to let us see past events and explain things in a rushed form because of their fixed ending point of the show. And while it is still interesting and entertaining, it seems like a cop-out to me to get this complicated story-line, with it's gaggle of questions, all answered before the show finally ends.
I like this rationale.
Pretty interesting stuff. I wonder though, if what we think is a no fate scenario doesn't change the past as it happened, or the present, where they are, but it changes the future.
Does it even make sense?
That's why I'd say that Desmond never remembered Daniel talking to him until that particular moment in the future (3 years later than when he should've remembered, as Daniel is still in 2005, right?).
I wonder if I'm explaining myself correcly. I just find odd that Desmond only remembered that "conveniently" at that moment that took him to the church to meet the other LOSTIES.
I don't know if it was a slip from the writers, just to make the story move (I doubt it), but I think the no-fate scenario of changing things in the past only affect small things, like memory and stuff...
Maybe...
I may need some coffee.
Marcelo
Great job, Blitz Wing! I like your ideas. They explain a lot -- Desmond's confusion in particular, and him "remembering" things that don't really happen (ie: Claire getting on a helicopter) or at least, things that haven't happened yet. Also, this might answer the question of why Daniel Faraday was weeping -- he knew that he was going to be travelling the "wrong" way and thus couldn't change the things that were to come. Remember also Charlie writing "FATE" on his fingers -- he was destined to die no matter what, nothing anyone did could change it. Anyway... great thoughts you have there!
All this talk about fate and time travel reminds me of this section from Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy:
Lallafa had lived in the forests of the Long Lands of Effa. He lived there, and he wrote his poems there. He wrote them on pages made of dried habra leaves, without the benefit of education or correcting fluid. He wrote about the light in the forest, and what he thought about that. He wrote about the darkness in the forest and what he thought about that. He wrote about the girl who had left him and precisely what he thought about that.
...
Then, shortly after the invention of time travel, some major correcting fluid manufacturers wondered whether his poems might have been better still if he had access to some high-quality correcting fluid, and whether he might be persuaded to say a few words to that effect.
They traveled the time waves; they found him, and did indeed persuade him. In fact they persuaded him to such effect that he became extremely rich at their hands, and the girl about whom he was otherwise destined to write with such precision never got around to leaving him, and in fact they moved out of the forest to a rather nice pad in town and he frequently commuted to the future to do talk shows, on which he sparkled wittily.
He never got around to writing the poems, of course, which was a problem but an easily solved one. The manufacturers of correcting fluid simply packed him off for a week somewhere with a copy of a later edition of his book and stacks of dried habra leaves to copy them out onto, making the odd deliberate mistake and correction on the way.
Many people now say that the poems are suddenly worthless. Others argue that they are exactly the same as they always were, so what's changed? The first people say that that isn't the point. They aren't quite certain what the point is, but they are quite sure that that isn't it. They set up the Campaign for Real Time to try to stop this sort of thing going on. Their case was considerably strengthened by the fact that a week after they had set themselves up, news broke that not only had the great Cathedral of Chalesm been pulled down in order to build a new ion refinery, but that construction of the refinery had taken so long, and had had to extend so far back into the past in order to allow ion production to start on time, that the Cathedral of Chalesm had now never been built in the first place. Picture postcards of the cathedral suddenly became immensely valuable."
My post jumped five hours into the future. Freaky!
I love the irony that as I leave my post it is Monday, Feb. 16th at 9:20 p.m. The other three posts appear to be from the future which makes me wonder if I was fated to point that out or by posting this I am changing future outcomes...
I believe Daniel is traveling both ways and is in fact Jacob..
Or not...
When you discuss time travel, you HAVE to bring up Bill & Ted. Their time travel seemed to be a hybrid of Fate/No Fate, especially the act of leaving things for themselves. I'm glad that Lost is sticking with Fate for the most part - the subtitle for the season is "Destiny Calls", which helps to explain a lot.
wait.... who said theyll give up watching??? i mean fdor so many reasons ... we're almost a season and a half away from the end... why give up now.. .QUITTTERS!!!!! btw amazing point of view.... but from what we've seen on LOST as amazing ad thoguht out and in depth and brilliant each write up is...LOST decrees what is real or not... so im excited to see if this one is true....
god damn it, this show is brilliant and so you are!...I've got to say people who gave up watching lost since they saw that last episode x5...guys you'll miss it!! I won't give up in lost!!- nice work dude ;-)